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New Yamaha Dual-Sport

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OK,

I don't want anybody to think I'm jacking threads so I'll start my own.

Let's do our own research for Yamaha and try to collectively design the perfect dual sport bike. All opinions should be considered and knowone should attack people for what they think they would like. Also, if someone has a different opinion and debates it with you, don't take it personally.

That being said we may have to create two bikes in order to satisfy everyone. If we can't please everyone with two bikes, then we may never see the perfect bike. But I think we can.

I'll start with a few questions...if KTM's 450 exc had a reliable, low maintanence engine what would you change about the bike. Or would that be a great start point for Yamaha to build by. Second, mechanically speaking, what makes the WRR motor so good. Why is there such a service gap between it and the WRF. Does good sevice life equal bad performance? Help me on this one. What makes them different. Maybe hydrolic lifters vs solid? I would rather have low end on a d/s, you? I don't want to ride my d/s like a 2 stroke 125 but a lot of people say that's what it takes to make the WRR work well. Does high flow exaust effect service life? High compression? Has anyone considered what happens to mileage after the exhaust/filter/tuner/gear change? I'll bet it gets pretty low. Kinda cancels the great mileage arguemnent, right?

How does a great off-road suspension handle on the road? I've ridden all my dirt bikes on the road and loved them. I even rode my buddies heavily modified for MX CR500 on the road and it was the most fun I've ever had on a bike (and that was 10 years ago)! Why is a great off road suspension likened to driving a race car on the street? Come on, a race car has a rock hard suspension. Seems like a strange comparison to me.

How does age and/or riding style affect what we want in a D/S? where is the market target?

I would like to hear from TW and XT owners here too. Are you ready to switch? If not, why? Not worth the price or just don't have the funds? Are you very happy with your bike and don't want to switch? What do you like about your bikes? I wish I could buy a bike and not have to modify it, anyone else?

I hope I'll spark a lot of interest with this thread. I think we can have some fun with it.

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Well I'm 50 so I can only speak from the eyes of an older rider. I want a peppy ride (wheelie 1st and 2nd) that is light enough (280 or less) to do significant offroad at will and still be roadable for 200 miles per day. I don't want to work on my bike every ride. 3000 mile oil changes.

I own or have ridden them all. The WR250R comes close but I have to say that a DRZ400E with lights and a 6-speed tranny would kill it. The much wanted WR450R may do it all but it has to be reliable as well as fast and get decent mileage. Suzi could have dominated dualsports for the price of a new tranny. They didn't want it. Let's see if Yami wants it.

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I tend to agree with that. I loved the power, quiteness, and handleing of my 400e. The changes made to the s model increased its weight substantially and hurt it's off road manners with a lesser suspension (earlier models). I would have been happy if they just left the bike as is and added the bare neccesseties to make it street legal. I have a friend that did just that to his 400e and loves his bike. I would even consider shedding the 13lbs and get the kickstart model although I would probably wish I hadn't at times! That would give me a 250lb dry weight and 38hp (I think). With LED lighting you don't need a 200watt generator (never mind the 350watt WR gen). I don't usually run power tools off my dirt bike.🙂

I will say that upright, the WR feels light. The weight is low but once you tip it 10 or more degrees, the weight is very aparent. Tip it close to 45 and you better be in shape. The more the pace quickens the more you lean. Hit a rock or root in a turn and things get buisy. I can ride my WR on my track fast but I get arm pump bad from mussle'ing the bike around.

As for a WR450, typically the 450s weigh around 20-25lb heavier than their 250 counterparts. That makes it 300lb dry or say 320 wet, yikes! Many things need to happen to the design (weight wise) for this bike to satisfy it's audience. If the bike came in at say 276 dry as it should, what would become of the 250? It would have to lose pounds or risk being a non-seller.

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I think you make a bigger deal of weight than it really is. Many people ride 500+cc bikes, and many times a bike review talks about where weight is carried, why do you think all the new BMW bikes have underseat fuel tanks with the airboxes up where we are used to the fuel tank being?

I mean I am not saying weight doesn't matter, but for a dual sport some weight is actually good as it helps with road manners, and if its carried well it doesn't have to hurt as much offroad. Of course if you completely drop the bike its always going to suck.

How much more do you want to pay for this bike? I mean why do you think manufacturers make the decisions they do and leave the aftermarket extra spending up to us?

If Yamaha put a ton of titanium and carbon fiber into a WR450R and kept the weight down who would pay the pricetag of that? Very few people in comparison to the approach they are already taking imo.

The popularity of the DRZ-400 is a great example of this same compromise mentality used to great success.

If people want the plated off-road bike they already have husky and ktm, the missing chink in the market is the true dual sport that is updated from the technology of yesteryear into a modern day machine.

I mean seriously look at the XR650L Honda has not done anything to it for like a decade.

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Killr-z, let me see if I have this right:

- You don't like the price.

- You don't like the weight.

- You don't like the engine, except low maint.

- You don't like the frame.

- You don't like the suspension.

- You don't like the tires.

- You don't like the electrical system.

- You don't like the exhaust.

- You don't like the bars.

- You don't like the pegs.

- You dont even like the bolts.

- what have I (or you) missed? the brakes? the seat? the color scheme?

Make yourself 🙂 Trade that bad boy tomorrow for something you like.

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Killr-z, let me see if I have this right:

- You don't like the price.

- You don't like the weight.

- You don't like the engine, except low maint.

- You don't like the frame.

- You don't like the suspension.

- You don't like the tires.

- You don't like the electrical system.

- You don't like the exhaust.

- You don't like the bars.

- You don't like the pegs.

- You dont even like the bolts.

- what have I (or you) missed? the brakes? the seat? the color scheme?

Make yourself 🙂 Trade that bad boy tomorrow for something you like.

UMMM not sure what all that means but, I'll say this in response...

I like the price and I'm willing to spend more but not 8-9000, that's too much

I like the weight just wish there was less of it :worthy:

Love the engine just wish it had a little more bottom end for d/s type riding

I like the frame but am suspicious that it might be partially responsible for some of the extra weight...just a guess though

I'm not crazy about the suspension but it's good for most others so that makes it good for the bike, just not the way I ride

Don't remember saying anything negative about the tires

I do think the 350watt gen is overkill and suspect it has negative impact on weight. Also, too bad LED signals weren't stock, are thay too pricey?

Don't remember saying anything negative about the exhaust

Don't remember saying anything negative about the bars (leaving mine stock just because there so light:thumbsup:

Ti pegs would have kicked ass but not a big dual sport item. I don't mind spending SOME money on mods

The MX bikes have a lot of R&D put into lightweight fasteners and I think the dual sports would benefit even more from that already aquired technology. MX bikes don't all cost $9000 either. I would happily buy an upgrade fastener kit from Yamaha if they offered one.

brakes-great, seat-great for my use, color-awsome, would'nt change it!

If you think your WRR is perfect then disregard this thread. It's targeted at people who might think there is an elusive nearly perfect bike and figuring out what is missing from today's offerings. Ride safe :D

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killr-z.....

nothing is missing from this bike. At least not as far as

a stock set up. Yamaha charges what they need to

charge to cover what they have determined fills a need

in the market place.

If they made all the improvements you want, then

there will be many others who disagree. If they made

all the improvements I want, then there will be many

others who disagree.

Plus, with all these improvements will come an increased

cost. Im sure Yamaha has spent some time and money

on market analysis to determine return on investment

for their venture.

Why not just buy the bike, which you have, and spend

another 1000 to 1500 dollars building the bike you want?

Surely that 7500 dollar investment would get you really

close to "your" perfect bike. If not, then maybe you do

need to spend more money, I dont know. Maybe you

need to start with a different bike, maybe a WRF and

make it street legal. I dont have an answer for what

is the best way to get "your" choice of bike, because

I dont really know what bike you want. I would sit

down, write out everything I wanted out of said bike,

and then figure out how to get it through modifications.

As for me, I have taken this bike and turned it into a

strict off road EFI machine that is very capable in

my opinion. The bike, for me, has enough power

(after mods) to get the job done. I dont have to be

concerned with "excess" power that might cause

me an accident on the track/trails. The WRR is very

consistent in its power delivery for my particular use.

As you have mentioned numerous times, maybe this

bike does NOT fit "your" needs.

I think Yamaha has reached out to fill a space in the

market place that NO other company has successfully

done to date.

This bike is NOT great at trails.....This bike is NOT

great at the track....This bike is NOT great on the

road.....This bike IS really good at all of these things.

I have said this before, and I still believe this. I simply

chose this bike because I really like, believe, and

enjoy the EFI systems. I wanted to transform this

bike to my particular needs and wants. As of today

I have accomplished this.

I wish for you that you can do the same. Just remember,

there is no ONE answer for everyone. There is no ONE

bike for everyone. And I guess this one is no exception

to that. So make it your own, or go try and find one

that works for you.

Good luck.

Later.🙂

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Fuel injected 450, back the compression down to 11 or less for general reliability and lower maintenance, and keep the dry weight under 250. 🙂:D:worthy: (I think Suzuki's got a great potential platform for either a DS or SM with their RM-Z450, btw.)

They don't need to get crazy expensive to keep the weight down. Making the full frame and subframe out of aluminum goes a long way. And it shouldn't cost too much $ to make a lightweight kickstand, for Pete's sake.

Weight begets weight -- WR250 probably went to the steel subframe just to hold up that anchor of a muffler and the giant tower of plastic they put on the back. Well, and a passenger, I suppose... But hey, ditch the weight and make it single passenger only if need be (just keep enough structure for packs/gear on the back). Do you really need two up on your DS???

That's what I'd like; 450 FI, 250 dry. I'd buy one (the SM version :ride:).

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Another factor that has been discussed is the Japanese

have a tiered licensing system in place which makes 250cc

and under bikes much more affordable and in demand.

I think the next cutoff is 400cc's and everything from the price

of the bike, the cost of licensing, and insurance jumps way up.

A 450 would cost even more cake to operate. So you're going

to be building bikes that are not popular sellers in the local

market.

The interest for the Japanese to build good DS bikes has to

come from somewhere like here, and hopefully companies like Yamaha

will step up and take advantage of that. Plus there's already

a growing number of companies supplying aftermarket compontents

and that provides incentive and feedback to continue and expand.

We'll have to see. Kawasaki has the KDX, Suzuki the DRZ, both older

designs. Honda is lagging. Yamaha is the only one to offer something

new and if this works, hopefully they'll move forward with bigger and

better bikes.

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I've got the WRX, which I hope you didn't mean to exclude from the thread.

I think the X compares with the DR-Z400SM along the lines you've been giving. Suzuki gives a wet weight of 321 for 2009, so maybe 25 lbs more than the X. The other specs, besides the engine-related ones, seem grossly similar between the two models. The prices are about the same. There have been huge threads about which is "better".

Yamaha's 450 is a racing engine. I have suggested here before Yamaha could use their 395cc FI, liquid cooled 4 valve single, making 34 hp stock @ 7250 rpm, with 27 ftlbs torque @ 6k rpm vs the R/X's 17 ftlbs @ 7k rpm. Already EC and EPA street approved. If the WR250R/X transmission could stand the torque, maybe they could fit the engine without much R&D cost. Gas mileage would be less:)

With no other changes to the R/X but the 395cc engine, and a 20 lb weight increase (making it the same as the DRZ SM), I'd pay at least $500 more. Since the 395cc doesn't have EXUP, they could save a little weight and money there. Only Yamaha knows.

Anyone know where I can get a wrecked Majesty cheap?🙂

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Fuel injected 450, back the compression down to 11 or less for general reliability and lower maintenance, and keep the dry weight under 250. 🙂:D:worthy: (I think Suzuki's got a great potential platform for either a DS or SM with their RM-Z450, btw.)

They don't need to get crazy expensive to keep the weight down. Making the full frame and subframe out of aluminum goes a long way. And it shouldn't cost too much $ to make a lightweight kickstand, for Pete's sake.

Weight begets weight -- WR250 probably went to the steel subframe just to hold up that anchor of a muffler and the giant tower of plastic they put on the back. Well, and a passenger, I suppose... But hey, ditch the weight and make it single passenger only if need be (just keep enough structure for packs/gear on the back). Do you really need two up on your DS???

That's what I'd like; 450 FI, 250 dry. I'd buy one (the SM version :ride:).

Yoe said it right here.

(I think Suzuki's got a great potential platform for either a DS or SM with their RM-Z450, btw.)

And now Kawasaki does as well with their new 09 FI injected 450's.

After what Kawasaki has been doing lately in the 450 and Lites classes

you know they would have to be the cats ass.

In a way, that is what confuses me about the WRR. Typically all of the new

state of the art stuff trickles down from the MX R&D. Suzuki and Kawi both

have FI MX race bikes, no word from Honda on the 09's and yet the 09

Yamahas MX'rs are all out now and no FI.

In a normal world of R&D we shouldn't even have the WR250R/X right now...

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I'm glad we don't all have to agree, and I'm glad Yamaha isn't just listening to offroad and (whatever kind of rider DiM is:) sumo? "spirited onroad"?) riders.

I don't want it to be any lighter. I get blown around enough in the crosswinds as it is.

I don't want it to be any more powerful, about 30 hp is enough. More will just be more expensive to operate and maintain. I wouldn't mind more torque below 7k rpm:)

I wish it had better aerodynamics so it would perform more comfortably, and with more rider comfort, at 70 mph.

I wish it came with a better seat for onroad use.

I wish the X and R wheels interchanged easily.

I wish my ankle would quit aching and swelling:thumbsdn: I might not be so grumpy.

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I wish my ankle would quit aching and swelling:thumbsdn: I might not be so grumpy.

Nah.....I doubt the ankle is the reason for the grumpy.....

🙂:D:worthy:

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Nah.....I doubt the ankle is the reason for the grumpy.....

:D:worthy::ride:

I said "might not":). At least I don't think I would be more grumpy if it didn't hurt:D

Part of my TT grumpiness is that TT seems to not work for me half the time, especially in the evenings. tonight it seems fine.

Part of it is I seem to be in a rather small minority here in "New Yamaha Dual Sport", where people seem to want a dual sport that is a better dirt bike than any existing dirt bike is, and only care about road-worthiness to the extent that they don't want tickets when they have to ride on one.

I can certainly understand the appeal of FI. I insisted upon it myself. I know Yamaha will soon come out with FI WR250F/WR450F and YZ250F/YZ450F models. Many here will be finally happy, and head off to the offroad and motorcross forums, respectively, in newly financed bliss. The WR people will still complain that it weighs more than the YZ does - that's fairly predictable, but not very interesting.

All of which leaves me here, alone, with the TW200 people:eek: I haven't read any of their posts yet, are they nice?🙂

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UMMM not sure what all that means but, I'll say this in response

...

If you think your WRR is perfect then disregard this thread. It's targeted at people who might think there is an elusive nearly perfect bike and figuring out what is missing from today's offerings. Ride safe 🙂

I wrote the post to see if you understood how unhappy you sounded with your bike, and I did exaggerate. Then I read your followup over in the other thread, where some folks were willing to go to more effort and time than I was to provide very thoughtful replies to some of your earlier comments, and really nice explanations of their views of the bike, etc. And your forthright follow-up over there made me understand that my post here was no longer useful or valid, if it ever was.

I look forward to hearing how you and your WR250R come to terms. i hope you'll "share":) that with us here, I think we can learn from it. I think I can, at least.

Oh, and I don't think the thing is perfect. Uh, I have some pictures of improvements I have made around here somewhere (listen for groans from the long-suffering:D)

Cheers!

/dh

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My, you do sound grumpy, Hermit. Sounds a bit like cabin fever, my friend. You need to get healed up and back in the saddle. 🙂 Wind cures my blues every time.

I don't mean to yank your chain here, but I thought you were pretty big into counting ounces and removing WRX parts for weight savings. :worthy: What gives?

For highway stability, a windscreen like Jaynen runs can help a lot, especially if it has a bit of a nose cone to it... And I'm with you on wanting a more comfortable seat. :D Gotta believe the DS guys would like it too...

You also mentioned looking for a little more low-end torque... Displacement can really help there. And a 450 doesn't have to be a monster, just look at the 400 DRZ! :banghead::ride::banghead:

BTW, you go a different direction than I do sometimes, but I always love to see what you're doing and the new ideas you come up with. No groans here.

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I said "might not":).

All of which leaves me here, alone, with the TW200 people:eek: I haven't read any of their posts yet, are they nice?:D

Post a picture of your bike in the exotics, may be they will let you in.🙂 I can hear it now... "I don't know what the heck that is but I got to have one".

When I get back on the computer I check the treads and see where you have posted, and read them first. I think the etch-a-sketch one is about the best I have read. Keep up the good work! I enjoy reading your posts and seeing the pictures.

Ask and you shall receive. Torque below 7K. I can about idle up the hill from the house, crack the throttle and pull away. I have a 12t front sprocket I ordered but have no need for it and will not install it. Still in the research phase though.

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Here is my opinion.

I know that some people are developing cams for the bike.

As the bike becomes more popular I bet we could see a "big bore" kit

There will be ways of slowly making this bike have more power.

I am sure I will want a better seat. Just not sure if I will want Renazco or Corbin. I would prefer Renazco but my impatience may get the best of me if Corbin releases there and can supply them faster while I feel the custom touch of Renazco may result in a better product.

I want a stinking larger gas tank that's what I want!!! I bet that Aqualine tank is gonna be 500+ bucks too 🙂

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My, you do sound grumpy, Hermit. Sounds a bit like cabin fever, my friend. You need to get healed up and back in the saddle. 🙂 Wind cures my blues every time.

I don't mean to yank your chain here, but I thought you were pretty big into counting ounces and removing WRX parts for weight savings. :worthy: What gives?

For highway stability, a windscreen like Jaynen runs can help a lot, especially if it has a bit of a nose cone to it... And I'm with you on wanting a more comfortable seat. :D Gotta believe the DS guys would like it too...

You also mentioned looking for a little more low-end torque... Displacement can really help there. And a 450 doesn't have to be a monster, just look at the 400 DRZ! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

BTW, you go a different direction than I do sometimes, but I always love to see what you're doing and the new ideas you come up with. No groans here.

Ack on the seat time, I'm getting desperate:crazy:

It got started, in this instance, when my fellow travelers started, for what I now assume are well-intnetioned apochryphal reasons, pimping expensive add-ons with the pretense they are much lighter. I prefer facts when I am ignorant, so I started collecting weights. I'm batting at least .500, having put to rest the notion that $100 aluminum bars are lighter than stock steel, and for the only two weighed aftermarket exhausts, one is more than 1 lb / $100 lighter, the other not. (I think paying $100 to take off a pound is a fairly generous test level. I wouldn't pay that much.) It's none of my business if you want to take stuff off, just be honest if you post about why - don't mislead the gullible. If it's heavy, say that. If you want something snazzier looking, say that. Whatever. Just don't say something that is easily proved false and expect me to swallow it:naughty:

I do like tidiness. Ever been in a German forest? They pick up the fallen branches so it looks neat. Look under the hood of a BMW? Everything laid out like someone was obsessed with getting everything just so. i'm that way, and I appreciate things that show that amount of attention. The engine castings are very nice on the bike. Nice lines. Very functional. But take off some of that plastic, and the mess of hoses and wiring - :ride: Untidy. Under both left side body panels - that has to be fixed, at least on a bike I am going to own and ride.

In other words, if it's right, its right, and it weighs what it needs to. If its not right, it doesn't matter how much it weighs, it shouldn't be there.

I made a failed effort at a windscreen. I learned. It'll be a while before I mount another attack. I like the old stuff at http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/ I have no idea how to mount that kind of thing on the bike. And I don't think fiberglass is a good road material.

Here's a new idea for you, fork tube fairings. Check the Cd of cylinders vs these. Expensive for one guy, but split on a group buy (size large for our tubes, and no one needs 32 linear feet), very cheap. You in?:banghead:http://www.ultralightnews.ca/streamlinedfairings/1.html

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Post a picture of your bike in the exotics, may be they will let you in.🙂 I can hear it now... "I don't know what the heck that is but I got to have one".

I didn't even know there was an exotics forum. I gotta get over there and get some ideas - "steal with pride":D

When I get back on the computer I check the treads and see where you have posted, and read them first. I think the etch-a-sketch one is about the best I have read. Keep up the good work! I enjoy reading your posts and seeing the pictures.

I seem to remember you roasting me for that one:lol: I'm glad there is at least some entertainment value on occasion.

Ask and you shall receive. Torque below 7K. I can about idle up the hill from the house, crack the throttle and pull away. I have a 12t front sprocket I ordered but have no need for it and will not install it. Still in the research phase though.

You've got a real cruel streak. You're enjoying this, aren't you:naughty: I hope to put in a solid 4 hours on the bike tomorrow. We'll see:D

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