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another standing thread

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I read all the time that standing is the better/faster way to ride off road. I probably sit way more than I should because I am not comfortable standing. I have read countless threads about how to make the bike fit me better when standing but no matter how the bike is setup I always feel like the ride is rougher when standing. I am not talking about over big stuff, just the little bumps like washboard roads. When I stand on a washboard section it feels like my eye balls are juggling in their sockets but when I sit in the same section it smooths out. This makes me slow down when standing because I feel that I can't see the terrain as well. It is like the little stuff is transluated through the bars and when I am standing I am holding on to the bars much harder than when sitting. I would like to know if any one else has had this problem and if it is something I can fix. I have tried messing with the compression and reboud of my forks but does not seem to make much difference. Also the bike is a crf450 with correct springs for my weight.

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Sounds like a case of death grip with the handle bars. Try relaxing your arms, and use your knees or ankles to sqeeze the bike. I try to point my toes inward this helps me sqeeze my bike. You need to put weight on the bars but DO NOT over grip them. This will take time to learn, but it should help a lot.:)

If you are riding off road with a 450R you will not have a plush ride. That bike is just not valved for off road.

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I agree, Loosen your grip and turn your elbows out. This allows your elbows to absorb some of that shock. When talking about standing, I refer to riding off the seat, not knees locked standing on the pegs. :)

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The only things I'd add to the above advice is to practice standing balanced on the pegs when riding where there is never pressure on your palms or fingers. Your grip should be floating neutral as much as possible......... The tacks under the fingers and palms analogy always did it for me. The other thing is riding with knees bent instead of locked. Some will say to conserve energy by riding with knees locked, but I completely disagree. Work on leg strength and if your legs get too tired, then go to the more locked position backup plan.

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I have read countless threads about how to make the bike fit me better when standing but no matter how the bike is setup I always feel like the ride is rougher when standing. I am not talking about over big stuff, just the little bumps like washboard roads. When I stand on a washboard section it feels like my eye balls are juggling in their sockets but when I sit in the same section it smooths out.

Most of the comments you've received so far are good, common sense tips... but, surprisingly, no one has mentioned (including yourself) what your bar/seat/peg to body relationship is.

How tall are you, what is your *"riding inseam" length, how long are your arms?

Are you running all stock bars, risers, seat and pegs?

Are you hunched over badly at the waist to reach the bars when you stand?

Are your knees locked or slightly bent?

All these references are variables that will have a bearing on your comfort and confidence.

If your bars are to low for you, you will be forced to bend more than you should, somewhere... usually the waist.

If you are hulking over the bars, you tend to have all your upper body weight on your hands... which causes issues that others have already discribed. "Death grip" is bad. :)

If you are so tall that standing is a loooong distance to go, then you need a taller seat and/or lower pegs... to go along with taller bars and/or risers.

If you're short, and have short arms, you may need lower bars and/or risers that bring the bars closer to you. You may benefit from a seat with a "speed bump" that keeps you closer to the bars.

When you sit, your bars are ahead of you... when you stand, they are below you, or in line with the forks. It's a different feel, a different leverage and a different skill set to ride standing.

The most important thing you can do with a bike is to set up the ergonomics to suit your build. Bars, seat, pegs, risers... all the contact and control surfaces need to fit you, not "Joe Average Rider".

And... those surfaces need to fit you both when sitting and when standing.

As a custom seat builder, off-road rider and racer for nearly 40 years I can tell you that until you and your bike are ergonomically "one" in all positions... you'll never be a happy camper, and you'll never go as fast or as confidently and comfortably as you have the potential for.

C

* "Riding inseam". A measurement from crotch (perineum) to ground, feet 6-8" apart... in your favorite riding boots.

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Sounds like stiff arms to me. The big thing about standing is to take the workload off your arms and use your body weight, feet and knees to control the bike. Your hands/arms should be relaxed and left to the tasks of twisting, pulling and turning your handlebars and the gadgets thereon.

I stand because I get worn out in a few minutes if I sit...... And I'm much faster.

Learn to do this well before making massive adjustments to the ergo of your bike. The technique doesn't require any particular set-up and any changes that do need to be made will make themselves very obvious as you progress.

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One reason your arms get tired, as ExploringWA mentioned, is that you're probably not getting neutral over the bars. You probably need to lean farther forward than you think you should while standing. There's a magic spot in there that will unload you arms and it will feel like you're too far forward at first. Think about it as "leading the bike" instead of the bike leading you. When you stand too far back, you need to hang-on you accelerate and so causing you to death grip to hold on. When neutral and forward, the gravity of acceleration pushes you in to your pegs because you're "leaning" in to the forward motion. (obviously going down hill means you aren't far forward over the bars, or else you might literally go over the bars).

Here's a pic from a recent Dirt Wise class with Shane Watts where he's giving instruction about leaning forward, notice he's pulling this guys helmet waaaay forward over the bars...clearly there's a point where you're balanced and "even" (neutral) over them, you'll have to find where that is with practice...

Day1%20063.jpg

If you're having trouble "seeing the terrain" while standing it maybe because you're looking at the ground in front of your front wheel while you stand and when sitting it makes your look farther down the trail/road. Instead look ahead farther while standing and see if that makes a difference. This will help balance and improve your ability to go faster as you can better predict the terrain.

colin

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Good advice. I was riding on Monday and felt that standing was harder than I thought.... I have very strong legs, but the abrupt power on my YZ250 kept me tense when I was was bouncing off of the pipe.

Looking at that pic I was WAY back, and my compression settings on my fork were WAY TOO HARD (thanks to the recent rebuild and "I put the setting back where you had them"...NOT!).

I feel like I need a taller seat as well, and I sit down a LOT so the extra cushion is what I am looking for... I am not comfortable with the throttle control standing yet... but I'll keep working on it and appreciate the pointers!

Generally I sit until something comes up (like whoops or braking bumps then move out of the saddle... probably way more of an MX style than an enduro style...

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Thanks for all the responses. I guess I need to find the balance as mentioned. I have tried to not have a death grip but I seem to have less of a problem if I let my self balance on my feet but then I am holding my weight from falling off the back with my arms. Then if I lean foward so that I am not holding my self form falling off the back but I am directly over the bars and that is when it seems that everything is going straight up through my arms to my head. I guess I need to find the right balance so that I am not holding my self with the bars in an way. It just seems hard because when standing your center if mass is so much higher that the bike that any acceleration and you need to lean foward and by doing that your weight is in the bars.

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I was having a hard time on my KX250. I put some StompGrip on the shrouds where my knees rub and that was what I needed to give my legs a little grip to stabilize my body. It lets me take some of the strain off my arms and shoulders when accelerating - squeeze the knees and twist the trottle! :)

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/2/9/191/7627/ITEM/Stomp-Grip-Universal-Traction-Pad-Sheet.aspx

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i went through the same thing. the only way to learn is to just do it every time you ride. thats what i did. if i sat down i would tell myself thats not how i'm gonna learn. so forced myself to get my butt off the seat.

for me riding the 2t is a different riding style than my 4t was. 4t was a little more relaxed position and when i made the switch i had to start standing because i was actually worn out sitting down on the 2t forcing me to ride slower. so since i have been standing its a bit easier to keep up plus i don't seem as tired. that may sound funny but that is what worked for me. i just kept telling myself the only way to get better is to ride standing all the time.

getting comfortable will come with time.

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It just seems hard because when standing your center if mass is so much higher that the bike that any acceleration and you need to lean foward and by doing that your weight is in the bars.

You need to lean forward just enough to counterbalance the force from the acceleration, not so far that your weight is on your arms again. The more you open the throttle, the bigger the force, and the further you have to lean forward to counterbalance.

A certain amount of hanging on with arms is always necessary, but I try to use that to get balanced again on my legs, rather than letting my arms work hard all the time.

I find that I open the throttle and lean forward more or less simultaneously. Which means that when I hit a neutral by accident, I find myself falling forward. That's one situation where knowing how to grip the tank with my knees is handy ;-)

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You need to lean forward just enough to counterbalance the force from the acceleration, not so far that your weight is on your arms again. The more you open the throttle, the bigger the force, and the further you have to lean forward to counterbalance.

A certain amount of hanging on with arms is always necessary, but I try to use that to get balanced again on my legs, rather than letting my arms work hard all the time.

I find that I open the throttle and lean forward more or less simultaneously. Which means that when I hit a neutral by accident, I find myself falling forward. That's one situation where knowing how to grip the tank with my knees is handy ;-)

This is a great explanation.:D If you read about what the neutral position is or about how stand it says you should be balanced over the pegs so you can hold yourself up without your hands and lightly griping with the legs. The explanation is that you should not put your weight on the bars. What was missing (at least for me) is the compensation for forward momentum! it's like leaning against a strong wind. You wouldn't try to stand strait up when you were in a 30 mph wind! Lean into it! The problem exists when you go too slow. No need to lean... LOL I guess if you can stand strait up AND are balanced... your going to damn slow! :)

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werd :) i'm just getting used to this all myself...

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OK, I'm about to go completely opposite to everything mentioned here and I may very well get flamed for it(I know Dwight will back me up here).

Standing and sitting both have their place in the off road world, if you doing more enduro types(rocks and such) then I say standing is great, however if you doing more fireroads/wide open areas (well as I know them in South Africa) it's OK to sit.

Basically what I'm saying is let the terrain you riding tell you when to sit or stand, you don't have to stand all the time because someone said so. All you doing then is wasting energy, having said that I'd rather be standing when I hit a lurker, but then again if you going that fast I would suspect you know the area you riding in.

Of course each to their own just my 2c

Later

Chilli

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OK, I'm about to go completely opposite to everything mentioned here and I may very well get flamed for it(I know Dwight will back me up here).

Standing and sitting both have their place in the off road world, if you doing more enduro types(rocks and such) then I say standing is great, however if you doing more fireroads/wide open areas (well as I know them in South Africa) it's OK to sit.

Basically what I'm saying is let the terrain you riding tell you when to sit or stand, you don't have to stand all the time because someone said so. All you doing then is wasting energy, having said that I'd rather be standing when I hit a lurker, but then again if you going that fast I would suspect you know the area you riding in.

Of course each to their own just my 2c

Later

Chilli

completely agree with that, i was under the general assumption that we were talking about standing while in the tricky stuff myself, which is 90% of the trails around here :)

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I hate to be a picture whore, but here are some pics of my brother and I. We both stand up for most of the race, it is amazing to see how much our riding positions are alike. All 4 of these pictures are standard "attack" position in my book. Ready for anything.

prpv.jpg

prpv1.jpg

CopyofIMG_3592.jpg

CopyofIMG_3600.jpg

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Good style but why are you standing on smooth ground ?

I would have gone into the turn sitting and leaned into that berm.

Sit when you can , Stand when you have to.

Dwight :)

I hate to be a picture whore, but here are some pics of my brother and I. We both stand up for most of the race, it is amazing to see how much our riding positions are alike. All 4 of these pictures are standard "attack" position in my book. Ready for anything.

prpv.jpg

prpv1.jpg

CopyofIMG_3592.jpg

CopyofIMG_3600.jpg

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Good style but why are you standing on smooth ground ?

I would have gone into the turn sitting and leaned into that berm.

Sit when you can , Stand when you have to.

Dwight :)

I'm completely the opposite.

Stand when I can, sit when I have to.

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Well Dwight and Chill just made me feel a whole lot better about my riding style. I am more comfortable sitting in 5th gear pinned than I am standing in the same situation. I have been riding for years this way but since I have been reading this forum I have started to rethink how I am riding. I figured I would try something new and see how it work because how do you get better if you never try anything new? But hearing the responses I figure that I am not doing too bad. Thanks again.

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