Dave's Taco Sauce

[fgkell]

I'm about to experiment with the speshul soss and interested in some specific feedback I wasn't able to extract from the search engine. How many of you have used his oil without any other simultanious mods. Whether stock or modified suspension, I'm interested in hearing from the guys who did nothing but switch oil and what their expeience was. Thanks for your help in advance.

[mog]

i have switched to his oil with no other changes, the forks can be felt, the shock i would say not really, its great oil, it holds up really well and is a very good lube-not all oils are.

[fgkell]

the forks can be felt, the shock i would say not really,

in what way can it be felt?

[mog]

in a postive way, smooth fork action, its not a revalve in a can, but its a great oil for other reasons, it will outlast others by 4-5 times..and its good for your fork(less wear), you cant ask for more than that.

[jwaseman]

The 215.Vm2.K5 accomplished a couple things for me.

One being, it made the bumps not so bone jarring.

Secondly this stuff is designed to last longer than the conventional

fluids. Also alleviates arm pump. Give it shot!

Hope this helps.

[FTUO]

Your robbing your self if you don't go with the full mod. It's cheap and works wonders.

[achap]

Your robbing your self if you don't go with the full mod. It's cheap and works wonders.

what is considered the full mod? I am about to modify hte shim stacks, and use dave's oil. Dave mentioned to me that this should cover a large portion of the available advantages, but that there were also others to try.

But yeah, if you are going through the trouble to service your suspension, it really isn't much harder, or much more expensive, to at least modify the shim stacks and change the valving.

Also wanted to say Dave has been super helpful in answering all my questions, and a pleasure to work with... I'd recommend him to anyone.

I'll be posting something when I am done about the mods I did and how good his snake oil is!

[fgkell]

I'm not even remotely trying to avoid modifying my suspension and I have no doubt Dave's mod's are top notch. The question I asked was with specific regard to the isolated effect of the oil whether modified or not. LOL, thanks mog and jwaseman for your input.

[kawamaha]

I do not notice a few clicks on the compression so I think there must be a real change in my forks that I will notice something. it's hard to say if there's a real change when you ride one day, change the fluid at home and ride one week later again on a track that is maybe smoother than the week ago - but I really think there was a difference with the 215.Vm2.K5.

it was an overall plusher ride, but that was before I installed the del taco like blow-off system. never tried that with a normal fork fluid.

[fgkell]

I do not notice a few clicks on the compression so I think there must be a real change in my forks that I will notice something. it's hard to say if there's a real change when you ride one day, change the fluid at home and ride one week later again on a track that is maybe smoother than the week ago - but I really think there was a difference with the 215.Vm2.K5.

it was an overall plusher ride, but that was before I installed the del taco like blow-off system. never tried that with a normal fork fluid.

So you did have a chance to ride the bike with the fluid before you installed the blowoff system?

[russ17]

If your not one to change their fluids on a regular basis or just want good quality fluids. I would recommend you give this oil a try. I holds up real well. Very good on bushings and seals

Eliminates stiction on bushings and seals. The stuff klings or coats. heck I got to sit there for 5 min to get all the fluid out of the graduate cup. If not when you set the cup down you will see about 3 to 5 cc left in the cup after sitting LOL

[kawamaha]

So you did have a chance to ride the bike with the fluid before you installed the blowoff system?

yes, as I said, it felt plusher. a friend of mine, also rather skeptic of those "magic fluids", felt the same

[twenty34]

If your not one to change their fluids on a regular basis or just want good quality fluids. I would recommend you give this oil a try. I holds up real well. Very good on bushings and seals

Eliminates stiction on bushings and seals. The stuff klings or coats. heck I got to sit there for 5 min to get all the fluid out of the graduate cup. If not when you set the cup down you will see about 3 to 5 cc left in the cup after sitting LOL

sounds like it has similar characteristics as synthetic.

[harrperf]

While dave and I may not be best buddies, his oil's longevity and lubrication abilities are impressive.

The claims etc...are somethign I wont touch on....but purely as a question of its seemingly quality in bushings lubrication and spring wear...plus its ability to hold up in the inner chamber are second to none (and I have tested with a ton of oils....)

Take it or leave it for that....it's a good oil from a good oil's standpoint.

[twenty34]

synthetic right? or what other additives could increase the life of the oil and lower the coefficient of friction as claimed?

[dunn2500]

this is too funny......dell taco and taco sauce!........marketing 101

[fgkell]

maybe that's what he should call it

[DaveJ]

Okay...here's the deal.

A shim is a spring, so shims often behave in all the weird ways that a normal compression spring does. And one of the weird things that a spring does is a thing we call, "nothing at all".This takes place in the very first millimeter or fractions of a millimeter as the spring is compressed. In other words, springs don't have a perfect linear progression like the math would lead us to believe.

So there is a "spring delay" of sorts.

This is why you can take a big beefy coil spring and get the spring to bounce and compress slightly when you tap it with your hand. Even the biggest truck spring will still slightly compress with little to no effort.

Why is this? Well, I assume it has something to do with the density of metal and the gap between the molecules and the fact that you have to compress the molecules to a certain point before they start to run into each other, which in turn creates a force or resistance. But I’m not exactly sure and all I really care about is what shims or springs do or do not do.

So...a shim can be bent or will lift from the face of a piston before it really offers any resistance. Even if you stack a whole bunch of shims and clamp them down really tight, they still have this problem.

Now…when a shim lifts from a piston the entire shim doesn’t lift as if to expose the entire port of the piston, like a flapper valve might. When a shim lifts, it rolls off of the piston port. So the real port is not the piston port, but the port created by the shape of the port in combination with how the shim rolls off of the port edge. In other words, you create an opening, which is nothing like the opening itself.

When the shim lifts (rolls) within this range of where little to no resistance is generated, the actual port size is relatively large due to the fact that the port size of the piston is very large. In other words, because of the trapezoidal shape of the piston port, and because of this shim delay matter, you get what I call, “hydraulic dribble”. In other words, there’s no real heat conversion or resistance for a good portion of rod acceleration and velocity. This means two things. Velocities build up (which leads to over-oscillation), and within the brief moment in which there is no conversion, the energy of the hit is being scattered into the spring and chassis of the bike.

This is what creates that high frequency vibration that wreaks havoc on our hands and arms. And this is why, without many tuners even knowing it, see very interesting and beneficial results from running small and/or round port pistons. That said, the primary role of the 215.VM2.K5 is to eliminate this delay and convert the kinetic energy into heat much sooner than a standard fluid.

How did we figure this out? Well…we measured shims in a standalone jig, then we looked at forces created by a piston when we pumped fluid through it, then created dished out pistons that created a pre-load on the shim stack.

Then we started looking at what took place as this delay was eliminated. The first version of this was in the Isolated Fork that we built back in 2003. This was a weirdo concept fork that ran all the compression in one leg, and all the rebound in the other. Although a host of benefits and complications were encountered, the biggest lesson learned is what it revealed about the quality of the ride when this shim delay was isolated and resolved, of which could not have been verified within a traditional fork or shock design.

So…dishing pistons was an option but a very expensive one. Then we started to find a host of other issues related to fluid. The biggest being the shearing of polymers, little coil like windings that are incorporated into liquids to maintain viscosity values through a variety of heat ranges.

The problem here – when polymers are used in a suspension, they shear or break apart and the fluid goes bad and starts to do weird things. This is the main reason why most fluids have to be changed on a regular basis.

Then we found another issue. That being, that fluid likes to shake off or run away from mechanical components when said components move really fast. Part of this is created by turbulence and such, but often the fluid just jumps away from anything that can move faster than it can. Not a big issue in a shock, because of the nitrogen pressure, but a big problem in something like a fork.

So all of this, we felt, needed to be resolved if we were to ever going to get to an ideal suspension design. The easy part was finding a fluid that would not run and hide when velocities got crazy, and it was not too hard to find a collection of fluid stocks that would behave in the required manner without the use of polymers. The tricky part was getting a fluid to behave in a non-linear manner, and this is when the mystique of the non-Newtonian matter comes into play because we needed fluid that behaved differently to various pressures and velocities, and the only way that were able to get to that was to take various stocks and compounds and mix them together, and then bake them (like a cake) in order to fuse what is now 215.VM2.K5.

The name, 215.VM2.K5, is actually a mathematical formula that represents the production process. The name came into play by accident and from users not having anything else to call it. And we really didn’t care to give it a proper corporate type name like Dell Taco sauce or S-9000 or Vibra-Away or whatever. This is what happens when engineer minded people make business decisions.

Now…why all the details?

Well…the fluid does everything that is mentioned in the so-called marketing material. It is that good, and we have users that write and call us all the time with their “I can’t believe it” stories and adventures, all of which we expected as the results were the same with what we were seeing and testing in our own bikes. However, not all users experience the same results. And often it has a lot to do with age.

The older people get the more particular they are to vibrations and movement and of course, they are more sensitive to pain. Most users under 25 don’t notice much of a difference with respects to arm pump and like, but will report benefits related to bottoming and the fork feeling more planted and such.

So…outside of the whole “hard-to-believe” thing, there are all these other benefits…which are certainly a good thing. But…at some point, the matter of what the bike does or does not do based solely on the fluid, needs to be further proven to some people. I mean, it does sound a little too good to be true…right? I agree.

I don’t blame anyone for thinking so, certainly those that have been in this industry for some time and have seen many things, and their marketing claims, come and go.

So…all goofiness aside, this is why I was really pressing RickK to be a type of fluid arbitrator. He’s got big problems, he’s a tried and true rider, and he has the ability and mental wherewithal to translate and compose his findings. Aka, our perfect test subject. So one of these days, I hope he steps up and takes on the challenge followed by his findings, live and front and center, on the TT suspension forum.

Then we’ll really have an answer to this question of what the fluid does in a bike that is causing so much pain to its rider. Till then, try it at your own risk and of course, we’re always willing to refund the money of anyone that doesn’t think it’s worth every penny.

?

[fgkell]

I'm both skeptical and curious. But I am willing to give it a try. I sent you an email with a few more questions and I would like to order. Just wanted to stir the pot and see what floated to the top. Thank you for all your info and eplanation.

[DaveJ]

This is the primary link on the KYB Isolated Fork that lead to some of the development associated with the 215.VM2.K5.

For what it's worth.

https://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336140&highlight=isolated+damping