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How about a battery charging / testing tutorial?

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DRZdick - As is true with many things, there are multiple sources of right answers and conflicting answers. I give up on 4real but I will answer your concerns as it is more real world. The first sentence of my original answer said "There are general guidelines but lots of different answers". Intended to mean various sources will give different answers, some conflicting. This is one of those times. Please keep in mind all of this thread is about AGM batteries used for starting motorcycles, not deep cycle wet cell coach batteries which are a different construction.

My numbers come from Suzuki, Honda and Yuasa published sources for AGM batteries. 13 to 13.2 volts is fully charged after the battery has sat no load for at least an hr. Suzuki and Honda both say 1 hr. Sure more is better and I usually let sit overnight but most of the overvoltage will dissipate in the 1 hr specified. Suzuki says 12.8 is OK. Both Yuasa and Honda both say 13 to 13.2. 12.8 is not fully charged and I am not going to back down on that. Voltage that needs recharge varies a lot from various sources. Anything much under 12.8 will benefit from recharge. 12.6, 12.4 for sure needs recharge. Yuasa publishes a chart of voltage vs state of charge. 12.0 for sure is very low state of charge.

11.5 is damaged? Well that is hard to say. Undesirable for sure. It depends on a lot of things. Any severe discharge is bad. Number of severe discharges is significant. Time spent severely discharged is significant. Rare and brief deep discharges are not going to instantly kill a battery. It should be a wake up call not to do it again.

This thread is turning into an oil thread. I'm done.

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Hi Noble - yes I agree with what your saying here. AGM do float at a slightly higher voltage and if the manufacturers claim 13.2 is normal then fine. Just it seems a little high and I didn't want people cooking their batteries trying to achieve that. I suppose the best thing would be to check what battery you have first, then check what voltage it should be taken to.

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I give up on 4real but I will answer your concerns as it is more real world.

Everything I have posted I have backed up with references. If you can do the same for your assertion that 15 - 16V is the appropriate AGM terminal charge voltage, I have no problem conceding on my position. Just show me the data.

My numbers come from Suzuki, Honda and Yuasa published sources for AGM batteries. 13 to 13.2 volts is fully charged after the battery has sat no load for at least an hr. Suzuki and Honda both say 1 hr. Sure more is better and I usually let sit overnight but most of the overvoltage will dissipate in the 1 hr specified. Suzuki says 12.8 is OK. Both Yuasa and Honda both say 13 to 13.2. 12.8 is not fully charged and I am not going to back down on that. Voltage that needs recharge varies a lot from various sources. Anything much under 12.8 will benefit from recharge. 12.6, 12.4 for sure needs recharge. Yuasa publishes a chart of voltage vs state of charge. 12.0 for sure is very low state of charge.

Yuasa says 12.8V or higher is 100% charged in some places (p18, 28, 32), 13.0V in others after 1 -2 hrs of being unloaded (p20).

"A word on overcharging: don’t. Because of the characteristics of a sealed VRLA battery, too much of a boost charge will decrease the volume of electrolyte. The longer the overcharge time, the greater the drop in electrolyte – and starting power." (p32)

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechMan.pdf

East Penn says 12.8V or higher is 100% charged after 24 hrs of being unloaded. (p13)

http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/assets/base/0139.pdf

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What kind of oil do you use?

Any oil that meet the needs of my application - an essentially stock 2006 DRZ400E operated at 50 - 100F in a recreational manner (i.e. not raced).

I don't use use anything just because someone says I should. I look for the data to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I go into more detail here on why I chose the oil I did for my DRZ: http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=756767

:)

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i give up too.too many people with no clue trying to be a "expert" (while claiming not to be) with no real practical experience.

any way the picture in the PDF is not correct.its old picture.the current version you selct the battery rating.

its not a potentiometer.its a switch.

christie.jpg

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I go into more detail here on why I chose the oil I did for my DRZ: http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=756767

You know... thats pretty damn funny. I'm the same way... a BITOG'er and someone able to google just about anything.

Experts hate people like us... because we are usually always wrong when it comes to the real world. We sure like to talk a big game though.

PS - I thought I knew everything about oil too... until my big end bearing took a big fat shit... and I realized I should have just listened to an expert (Eddie) from day 1.

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Is there a "3 douche-fests and you're out" rule on TT? :)

Well, when you basically call the most respected member of the board a liar because you are googling outdated PDF's... I'm sure his days are limited. :banghead:

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You know... thats pretty damn funny. I'm the same way... a BITOG'er and someone able to google just about anything.

Experts hate people like us... because we are usually always wrong when it comes to the real world. We sure like to talk a big game though.

PS - I thought I knew everything about oil too... until my big end bearing took a big fat shit... and I realized I should have just listened to an expert (Eddie) from day 1.

Speak for yourself.

Do you have any data to prove that your oil was the cause of your bearing failure? Maybe you did a root cause analysis? That's what professional engineers and scientists (me) do in the real world you speak of. We don't just simply say "So and so told me that's why that happened" and leave it at that. Instead, we investigate the issue using the scientific method and let the data determine how to proceed. I would be laughed out of the room by the FDA if I went to them and said, "This lot of insulin was contaminated with gearbox oil, but I think it's safe because our cation exchange column should remove it."

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Mr. 4real is an insurance/risk expert as well... http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=721572. Is there a "3 douche-fests and you're out" rule on TT? :)

When you disagree with someone on an issue - do you always resort to an ad hominem attack instead of debating the facts at hand?

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

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Not always... Just when it becomes painfully obvious that the other person in the "debate" has stopped "debating" and moved on to "spouting crap." Oh, and I took Latin a LONG time ago, so my declensions/tenses/etc may be off, but consumus fecum et mortum. :)

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i give up too.too many people with no clue trying to be a "expert" (while claiming not to be) with no real practical experience.

any way the picture in the PDF is not correct.its old picture.the current version you selct the battery rating.

its not a potentiometer.its a switch.

christie.jpg

If you don't know my educational or vocational background, I don't understand how you can say I have "no clue" what I'm talking about or "no practical experience". For all you know I could be an engineer at Yuasa - I'm not.

Anyway, based on the picture you provided, the timer control looks different, too. Do you have picture of the whole face of the unit? Below is the picture from Christie's website for the C1012/2S. Their April 2008 brochure shows the same picture as well: http://www.christieautomotive.com/images/distributors/Christie%20Broch%200508.pdf

C10122S.jpg

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Well, when you basically call the most respected member of the board a liar because you are googling outdated PDF's... I'm sure his days are limited. :)

If you call asking someone about something for my own understanding - calling someone a liar - then I am guilty.

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Not always... Just when it becomes painfully obvious that the other person in the "debate" has stopped "debating" and moved on to "spouting crap." Oh, and I took Latin a LONG time ago, so my declensions/tenses/etc may be off, but consumus fecum et mortum. :)

Care to back that up. When did I stop debating and spouting crap? Everything I claimed, I back up with sources. OTOH, your first contribution to this thread was an ad hom attack and that is a fact.

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i have 2 so i took a pic of both.

these came direct from honda so it possible they spec them,but they are C1012/2S.

christie001.jpg

christie002.jpg

Hmmmm . . . the timer lettering is at least different. Does your charger have fixed timer positions or can it be set in between settings? I'm guessing the -1, -2, etc. correspond to some kind of setting that is mentioned in the operating manual?

Like you said, maybe the Christie website isn't updated, but then again their April 2008 brochure shows the same thing, too. When did you get them?

OR

Maybe Honda had them make a special batch for repair shops? It has been established that the charge rate switches are electrically different (variable vs. fixed), so maybe Honda had them "tweak" the algorithm and internal electronics as well.

Since Honda specs the charger, does Christie supply the operating manual or Honda?

Also, do you know much about the algorithm of your charger? Christie says that the C1012/2S uses a constant current algorithm. I wonder if yours is the same.

Finally, I think you said it previously it goes to 15V+ for terminal charge. I can't find a manual for a C1012/2S anywhere online. Is 15V what the manual says or is that what you measured with a VOM?

Thanks.

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you can set the timer any where you like.

-1-2 etc refer to what state of discharge the battery shows on the honda load tester.

depending on what the charger is doing (ie what state the battery is in)i see any where from 14 to 22 volts. at the terminals while charging.

i have no idea about the algorithim.honda supplys the info as well as christite.

im not gonna argue with you.you can post llink to what ever you want.specs,books or what ever.how it actually works sometimes time correlates.some times it doesnt.

like everything i do i prove it with actual experience.

like you said you arent a yuasa engineer.even if you were we would be having the same conversation.

i had japanese suzuki engineers come thru the shop.

i got to explain thru a interpreter that it was indeed possible to make a 60hp drz.

they both just gave each other blank stares and had a frantic japanese conversation several times.

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they both just gave each other blank stares and had a frantic japanese conversation several times.

I'm sure it is an ego boost to prove the 'engineers' wrong... but you could never gloat in a public forum... :)

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its not my style but the story fits into my point.

the best thing about the deal when the dyno graph was shown to them was one asked in very broken english "rear wheel?"

now say it in your best imitation voice.

when the interpreter asked what carb was on it and told them it was a 41mm fcr-mx i got "41!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???????????????" :)

any way its not like this is a new deal.

many performance books have been written.

we are way past the piston speeds and valve train velocities that were said not to be possible or at least stay together.

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im not gonan argue with you.you can post llink to what ever you want.specs,books or what ever.how it actually works sometimes time correlates.some times it doesnt.

like everything i do i prove it with actual experience.

I think part of problem here is we are not sure what is even being discussed anymore.

I claimed that ~14.4V is the optimal terminal charge voltage at 25 C for maximum AGM battery life. I have provided numerous sources from both battery and charger manufacturers to back up my claim. No one on this thread has shown any actual evidence to the contrary.

OTOH, I am not claiming that 15 - 16V will not charge an AGM battery. It will. However, what I am claiming is that 15 - 16V is not optimal and will result in diminshed battery life when chronically charged to that terminal voltage. I have provided numerous sources from both battery and charger manufacturers to back up my claim. Again, no one on this thread has shown any actual evidence to the contrary.

The truth is there will always be more than one "expert" on a subject and that's why I seek more than simply expert opinion to elicit the truth on an issue. I'm not saying that expert opinion has no value, only that it should not always be trusted at face value or over other more rigorously tested forms of evidence.

I do value real world experience, too - afterall, how do you think Yuasa, East-Penn, Concorde, etc came up with their optimal terminal AGM charging voltage? I'm sure (actually I know) they tested their products in real world settings and did not just base it entirely off of some theoretical calculation. The truth is, though, they both have their place.

When you built your 60 HP DRZ, did you simply build it based on what you thought would make 60 HP and claim it was 60 HP? Of course not, you probably started with an educated guess, but then tested it on a dyno and had the data to prove it was actually 60 HP.

Same for your jetting recommendations. You have obviously tried numerous combinations and have come up with the some very good ones for the DRZ. How did you finally come to find out what was optimal for different applications? I'm sure you started with what should theoretically work best and fine tuned until you found what actually worked best via the dyno.

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