VOR 250

Has anyone heard any updates on the VOR 250? I ran into it on http://vor.cz/A7.htm but that is the last I have heard of it. Is it just one of those 'special projects' like the VOR atm? A 250 would make a hell of a woods bike.

Rick

Look for the 250 at the Milan show late this year, hopefully it is on for release this year as 04 model. No ATV yet though.

I spoke to Dan at Motoxotica this afternoon. The new VOR distributor told him they are planning on to release it by the end of the year.

Rick

Here is some more info about the 250. Check out the cylinder head with the intake facing forward.

http://www.vroom.co.nz/press.htm

Rick

I am a bit disappointed in this design. Sounds like they are copying Cannondales design that failed miserbly. Who needs a backwards design engine with EFI is prone to failure on a dirtbike.

Cher'o,

Dwight

"copying Cannondale" don't think so! as for performance and reliability, so far so good. But then we may as well stay with wooden wheels and pedals if we think new designs will fail before they are tried!

Since when have Cannondales been reliable ? Why reinvent the wheel . Leave the carb in back and exhaust up front. They have been made that way for a reason since the early days. Do you think this is a new idea ? That is like saying a Perimeter frame is a new idea. They day back at least into the 1930s and then manufacturers got away from the design because they were TOO rigid and made the bike hard to work on and design.

IMO,

Dwight

Sorry Dwight I think you have misunderstood me, I was not refering to the reliability of Cannondales, I was however refering to the VOR 250. "Dales" I have no knowledge of except from what I have been told from a few freinds in the States that have one, they do seem to like them though.

As for youre reason to stay with the way things are done now and not to move forward is just lame thinking, period. If we all thought that way we would all be still riding a horse or for example, turbo's were invented early last century, should we rip these off todays vehicle's because someone thinks we may be "reinventing" them and they didn't work back then anyway.

I am amazed that someone who has no knowledge of the workings of this bike can proclaim its failure!.

All going well the 250 will be available later this year.

Are the Cannondales (ie: 2003) considered 'unreliable'? I'm asking because my brother-in-law has found a new 2003 x440 from a dealer that wants to 'get rid of it' for $5000. We are worrying about Cannondales solvency but I thought the 2003 were considered pretty reliable.

I agree with Vroom about trying new ideas. The forward facing intake seems like a good idea. The recent successes with the 'new' perimeter frames makes room for an air filter up front. As long as the air pickup stays out of the heated air from the radiators, the motor could be more efficient from the ram effect (like a car with a forward facing hood scoop). The caption on the NZ webpage states "and will allow us in future to adopt a sophisticated electronic fuel injection system". I think they are going to be released with a carb.

Vroom, I think you are agreeing with the VOR 250 because the webpage is www.VROOM.co.nz...:-)

Rick

I have no idea on reliability of the Dales, given a chance I would not say no to one sitting in my shed, no one over here imports them. I am only guessing but would think some one will take over production of these bikes as especially the quad seems to be successful. So would not worry to much about solvency.

The VOR 250 is still a work in progress and should be seen in Sept.

Rick, you caught me, I am Vrooms R&D technician and selfconfessed bike nut.

Dwight,

I mean no disrespect here but you seem to be pretty negative about most bikes with higher tech features. You also tend to be critical of manufacturers formerly involved with Don Knight.

So far the Gas Gas 400/450 is bad because of the FI and about 10 extra pounds, VORs have a bad engine design and perimeter frames are garbage. Husabergs used to be the best thing on the planet until things fell apart.

I understand if you have opinions so state them along with a good reason and move on. Comments like FI is bad for dirt bikes, perimiter frames are bad, and the VOR engine design is reinventing the wheel are overstatements. Mike Ahola, Jeff Freddette, and countless other Gas Gas, Vor, and KDX riders may have another opinion about perimeter frames, VOR is certainly doing well in the world enduro and ISDE, and TM is getting EFI next year.

Just an observation.

New idea's are bad when your old and know it all and have done it all as well.

As was demonstrated with the early linkage suspensions, it might take a few itterations to get an idea right. There is no reason didgital control systems have to fail on motorcycle applications. They have worked in every other motor related application from automotive to diesel to military avionics...just takes development time to realise its almost impossible to anticipate the special conditions encountered in an application from an engineers desk. (A lesson learned from almost every software design/development program I have been involved with over the past 25 years).

As far as the knights are concerned...I have no idea if they have either the heart, guts, business acuity, or desire to be successful selling VOR. I'm personally nervous that this is ATK all over again where the true focus is their own machine and VOR is there to fill in until something works right with their own design. If thats the case VOR is history here in the USA. If they are serious then VOR will do well as it is an excellent product and very refined for its short time here. Time will tell. I still have mine and plan to keep them. I have not seen any action from tyhe knights yet so I can tell you they aren't that pro-active. My bet is they will write a letter....to dealers. dejavue.

David, I haven't said anything about Husaberg the bikes other than the problems with starting . They have lots of potential.

I really don't care for perimeter frames. I see far more disadvantage than advantages. I don't like aluminum for a frame material due to its nature to transmit impacts to the rider. And it is prone to fatigue failure. To make an Aluminum frame as strong as a steel one it will be just as heavy. As for VOR. I liked the 2001 frame and I am hearing good things about the engines. My problem was with the new experimental 250 engine being designed backwards. It did run potential buyers off if it did work. I personally think that it will complicate the design of frame , etc. I don't ride a VOR and probably never will. I don't care for perimeter frames. That doesn't mean that they can't work. Just my personal opinion. As for EFI , it does add weight. If you have a battery failure , you are dead in water. It is prone to dirt stoppage. It has proven itself in aircraft and automobiles where there isn't as much impact vibration but I think it isnt' quite ready for production dirt bikes. The additional costs are at least $1000 or more than a carb model also. I also don't care much for dual cam engines. Although efficent at High RPM, I believe Single cams are more than sufficent at the RPMs that Offroad bikes should be running at. DOHC also adds weight at a high point on engine, and is harder to adjust the valves. Now I understand that some of you are impressed by flash and gimmick but I like my machines simple and to the point business like. I guess that is why they make so many different types of machines.

IMHO,

Dwight

Dwight,

Thanks for the reply. I can see where you are coming from. There is definitely a benefit to keeping it simple. To be honest I will probably have to wait for an 04 since most I am interested in are sold out, no dealers in town, or not what I am looking for.

As far as EFI reliability, off road construction equipment have infinitly more impact vibration than motorcycles along with a much longer service life....so those EFI reliability concepts are not a real issue. Most diesel powered equipment have control systems for both motor controls and other functions. EFI systems weight can be an issue but doesn't have to be, just depends on the design. The battery issue is as real as it is on many street bikes. Battery technology has been around a while.

I happen to be neutral on the perimeter frames. The two brands who build bike I enjoy riding primarily because of the chassis dynamics happen to be Honda and VOR. So maybe I do like perimeter frames. Two brands whose chassis I like the least (for different reasons) are KTM and Suzuki...they don't have perimeter frames. Coincidence? I don't know. Just nice to have the options.

VOR's have had their share of issues. Statistically similar to most brands. Most can be traced to a couple of incidences not related to their design but to real time attempts to fix production mistakes both at the factory and at the distributer level.

Actually I like the way the new VOR's (2002's) ride and handle much better than the 1999-2001 versions. The newer chassis is ..awesome setup right. BUT for day to day riding and living with a bike I prefer a 2001 model. (Not 2000 or 1999). The 2001 handled good enough because of chassis changes relative to the 2000's. (Better than KTM's of the era) 2001 VOR's were WAY easier to live with than the 2002's and most other brands as well. Maintainance, tuning, fixing all were easy to deal with because of how easy it is to get access to critical area's with those 2001's. That old frame/chassis did have its advantages. Thats my opinion....and as most of my opinions, they are based on imperical data.

Now if all bikes were designed with the simplicity of your 82 XC430. I had a XC250 and it was the best 2 stroke I ever had. I got 6th in the Nat'l Enduro series that year ( 1983 ) . 1st 250 A class. Overall A rider for the year.

cher'o,

Dwight

Actually a rehashed Husky 430 air cooled two stroke in a VOR chassis would be a lot of fun without the four stroke related BS.

While you were having a ball being a Enduro Hero, I was buying 4 million dollars worth of Machine tools in Japan and coordination their installation here in the US along with the training of those who would operate them. Prelude to career in the CAD/CAM business that spanned 15 years, 18 countries, and over 300 companies(customers). My hobby was running 250A & OpenA motocross in district 34 & district 6 when I had the time. Now my hobby is growing 5 kids and restoring a 266 acre farm here in NYS. Motorcycles are a refreshing side show for fun when there is time left over.

One of the things I've learned over those years is there is no shortage of smart and talented people.

HEHEHE, I would have rather a VOR engine in the Husky frame.

I went to riding 4 strokes in 1987 when Al Baker talked me into trying his reworked XR270s. I fell in love with four strokes and wouldn't go back. I rode a Gas Gas 2 stroke, about 5 months last year. I won't do that again. I wouldn't mind a rework of the original Husky air cooled 510 engine with a oil cooler.

Wishful thinking .

Dwight

As they say...different strokes for different folks and slower strokes for older folks.

Take away the vibration and that old Husky 430WR is tons of fun. Less maintainance, no radiators to bust....enough gears for all situations along with nice responsive power for every situation. Riding that VOR450 and the Husky side by side..often makes me pick option 1. The VOR chassis. Blend the simplicity of a big bore air cooled two stroke with that VOR and I've got the motorcycle for chasing my kids around and busting new trail....maybe I'll ebay a VOR and see what a weekend of fabricating can produce next winter.

Dwight,

How does your "Penton" 520 rank in your mind in this discussion. Single cam and PDS keep it simple. Since you're an ISDT vet bring the whole stable (old and new) to the ISDTRR and we'll ride them back to back. Weimedog and myself will be there with our '82 Huskys (430XC and 250WR). We could bring my '00 Husky WR 250 and Weimedog's '02 Vor 450 EN to add to the test, but I would guess that Pathfinders MC might frown on it. See you in October.

Norman

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