angry MX fan speaks the truth about AMA

[scooter042]

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/open-letter-from-an-unhappy-mx-fan/

[Family Man]

He should have stated his sources to make his claims substantial and factual. Otherwise its just an angry opinion rant. Like "a four stroke pollutes the same as a 2 stroke at 60-1." Who said that? It may be true but he should sight his sources.

[Bullitt4110]

I couldnt agree more, the main reason I bought a 2 stroke is because I feel they are funner to ride but the cheaper maintiance was also a gig factor to why I owned my CRF450 for only a short while.

[tp3dxf]

Bravo my friend.

[ajd187]

Seems slightly exaggerated to me. I bet that guy has never owned a four stroke. His comments about 250f rebuilds sounded like something he read on the Internet versus reality. In 100 hours I've put a piston in my 250f and checked the vavles four times. Total cost maybe $200.00.

[YZ250ACE]

Great read and a lot of things that are very true.

[caling53]

well motor sport was never ment to be cheap. Its the same as cars and go carts. How cheap was a carberetta motor in a car to tune and race it was cheap. Then along came more expensive fuel injection that require computers to tune. The days of a new piston and rings and off you go are far gone. So to the guy who wrote the letter his son should try BMX if he can get past the fact the they have disk breaks on push bikes he should be fine.

[RCannon]

There are good points in the letter, but I have a problem with some of the ideas. I dont believe motocross has ever sold enough bikes in and of itself to support "dirt biking." I remember seeing a statistic that 80% of dirtbikes sold never see an organized race. If thats the case, we made our own bed in about 2004 or 2005. Those years had 2t and 4t dirtbikes on the sales floor. Obviously most chose the 4t or Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki would still have 2t's available. Motocross had declined a lot before the 2t vs 4t started. It was huge in the late 70's. So large Harley Davidson even attempted to sell a motocross bike.

The reason for the decline was cost. Currently the 2t might be less expensive to race a season with, but were long past the day when a person could get 3 competitive motocross bikes (not good bikes!) for 1500.00. Really, with the economy the way it is, a 6000-7000 YZ 250 2t is not cheap. The cost of the bike hardly matters. The expensive thing has always been the support equipment to use the dirtbike.

Truth be told, I am very ok with everyone NOT owning a motorcycle.

[ForsheeMS]

In 100 hours I've put a piston in my 250f and checked the vavles four times. Total cost maybe $200.00.

You have been very lucky to get that many hours out of a 250F. I'm not bashing thumpers, they are awesome to ride but there is no doubt that they are more expensive to maintain than a 2 stroke.

[William1]

Sounds to me like a 2S dad who's son was beaten by a kid on a 4S. Again, a lot of ranting, no facts or figures.

The reality is (at least the "target", which is constantly moving) is to enable both 4S and 2S race against each other. It will never be fair. Just like when some manufacturer comes with with a brilliant new design. That first year, they wipe up the competition. Riders you know are slow are winning because of it. Then the rules get changed to level the playing field. And then someone comes out with another breakthrough and again, the races are 'unfair'.

Life is not fair. If you do not like things, change them or shut up. But change is a fleeting point in time.

If it is a financial thing, get a second job or do someting else that is within your budget. I'd like to own a F1 team but it is out of my budget. Get real.

[ajd187]

You have been very lucky to get that many hours out of a 250F. I'm not bashing thumpers, they are awesome to ride but there is no doubt that they are more expensive to maintain than a 2 stroke.

That is a very common service life to get out of a blue 250F. Actually that is on the low side, there are guys who have gotten way more than me. Mine sits parked a lot now while I am out riding my smoker though.?

People who have issues with 250Fs are usually riding red or yellow ones.

I own both a 250F and a 250T. I would say the cost between the two is a wash. The four stroke is easy to work on, but the two stroke is even easier.

[William1]

I just did a 250f for a pal, 150 hours on it, power was a little down and it had just begun to smoke on start up, though he never had to add any oil between changes. No reason to of rebuilt it sooner. Bike was not raced (like 95%+ of the MX bike sold).

A of of piston/rings/what have you is done as preventative measures and not because it really had to be done. A 4s does have more parts, cost to take care of it is a little higher. But frequency of servicing is slightly less. The price differential is not that great. Most of excess expense associated with 4S ownership I have attributed to neglect and abuse.

[RCannon]

The 4 strokes cost wont be so bad until you need valve work. Obviously the cost of a piston kit is going to be similar for either 2t or 4t.

However, check out the oem Yamaha prices for Valves. This is from the TT store and the prices are heavily discounted.

http://shop.thumpertalk.com/oem.asp?partcategory=556135&manufacturer=6&category=3&year=2007&model=12913

or the head

http://shop.thumpertalk.com/oem.asp?partcategory=556133&manufacturer=6&category=3&year=2007&model=12913

I know those pieces SHOULD last a long time, but tell that to the unlucky guy who has to replace them.

[William1]

The guys that have to replace the head fall in to the 'abuser' class. Valves, yeah, the are pricey. But is you do an actual, honest cost comparison, they are mighty close. The 2S nickel and dime you, the 4S, nail you for dollars. But when the dust settles, you'd be surprised at how costs are close. The extra labor with a 4S full rebuild is at most 30 minutes.

[ajd187]

Yeah the head on a 4T is an expensive replacement for sure. In theory it shouldn't' be needed though.

There is a company (mxtime.com) that you can mail a 4S head to, and they will ship it back with all new valve pieces installed for $475. That is pricey but cheaper than OEM.

Now for the parent of a 13-15 year old racer moving up, the 250Fs are very expensive, I'll agree there. Especially after racing 85s, and compared to 125s.

[Butta]

What the author was trying to get at was not just his own predicament, but the entire sport, as a father-son team on a race circuit.

I've owned 4S and now own a 2S, and the 450 I had was indeed awesome, and very very reliable for the 105 hours I put on it. I raced it a few times (I'm in the 12% club!!), but kept the oil fresh and the filter clean. The problem with machines and anything mechanical is that a failure of moving parts is IMMINENT! It WILL happen, the question is when?? With a 4s, the potential $$ involved in a catastrophic failure is darn near replacement cost for the bike (on an upgrade scale). For a 2s, a complete motor rebuild (top and bottom), is what, $500? You have to pay to play, but should the AMA ignore the fact that the pricey potential failures (and there are bikes out there that have failed to this degree even when they were taken care of) is driving their market to a much much smaller audience?

I've never blown up a 2s, but I had a 4s snap a rod and blow it through the case. It was a used bike, I took care of it the best I could. Never raced it, etc. The cost to repair the motor by a shop was more $ than the bike would be worth with a good motor. So, I scrapped it, moved on to the next one. This practice worked for me, as a trail rider.....mainly because I can buy an older model at a huge discount vs. new and still enjoy the riding. To be a competitive racer, though, the used option isn't an option to remain competitive....and I would think a racer using a used bike is greatly increasing the risk of catastrophic failure, probably at an inopportune time.

[William1]

I agree mostly what you are saying but there are a few details you left out. If a 2S barrel is trashed (more often than a 4S) if there was any work done to it, that work/cost is lost. Much the same as with a ported 4S head.

A 2S and a 4S complete rebuild, it really depends on the damage. There is quite a bit of difference in barrel costs (A 2S generally is much more expensive than a 4S) though a 4S head is significantly more expensive. I have blown up both and the costs really vary. For example, any time a 2S blows up, I have to replace crank bearings and seals. Ten seconds of a lean condition can cause too much damage. So the engine must be pulled and cases split. Every time. With a 4S, that does no have to be done. If the crank turns smoothly, it may be OK to leave be. If during riding, noise is found, then the bearings get done. Engine cases, crank costs are all about the same.

Labor differences on a total rebuild (except the head) are about the same. As I mentioned earlier, heads do not fail unless the owner does not take care of the bike.

But comparing the two is pointless as everybody takes care of things their own way and therefore nothing is truly comparable.

All activities cost money. What you can do is often based on what you can afford. Everyone is not entitled to have a race team. As I said earlier, I want to race F1. Not going to happen. Should they make it affordable just for me? Or is it just the way the cookie crumbles.

When I was young and raced MX, I had zero support from anyone except my grandmother. She would drive me to the track. But the bike costs were all on me. not easy for a 14 YO. I was a very good rider, better than most. But kids much worse than I could regularly beat me. They had parental backing. I had a five year old bike, theirs was current. I made/recycled a lot of my parts, some good, some terrible. Was it fair? Sure was. You play the cards you are dealt.

[FLMX909]

Seems slightly exaggerated to me. I bet that guy has never owned a four stroke. His comments about 250f rebuilds sounded like something he read on the Internet versus reality. In 100 hours I've put a piston in my 250f and checked the vavles four times. Total cost maybe $200.00.

The ONLY way to get 100 hours out of ANY four stroke, whether it be Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, or KTM, is to baby the thing. We race HS and MX and own all 125, 250 and a 250f, and per hour the 250f is 4 times more expensive to race and maintain. Even one of our good riding friends, whose son raced a 250f had to replace the valves half way through a 12-14 race HS season. And he took it as easy as possible, keeping the engine off the revlimiter. The only way to get close to getting a season out of a 250f is to have the copper-berillium (sp) seats and expensive valves installed, to tune of $800 vs. $400 +/- for OEM parts!!

My son rings the neck on the 250f and I hate the expense. It's getting new valves, and getting sold and he'll be racing a 250 smoker! Besides, he's just as fast on his 125, and even faster on my 250 smoker.

Again, the only way you're getting that kind of time is babying it, keeping it off the revlimiter, you surly aren't racing any age classes where you're racing against guys on 450's.

[quinnjt20]

He did have some good points in the article. I do believe 4 strokes are easier to learn on and that the sport is not dying. I don't think this guy was at Millville in 2007 for Carmichael's last race. If you took a look at the hillside on that day, they were plenty of fans there and some to spare. I do think the AMA is a little over regulatory on 2 strokes though. Everyone talks about noise levels lately....... Stand next to a 450 bouncing off the rev limiter and then a 500 two stroke. Problem solved, 450's are loud as hell!!!!!!!!!

2008 CRF450

[schrode]

i think the real point of the article is they've taken the choice out of the racers hands by giving an unfair displacement advantage to the 4t. if the bikes are that good then they should be able to race a comparably sized 2 vs. 4t and allow the racer to make the decisions.

i only ride old bikes and never race mx so it doesn't effect me yet. but when the boy gets older i'd like to allow him to race mx if he wants. but with current rules i'm not sure we could afford it.

let's not forget smokers are fun as hell too.