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96-2010 DR650SE Fuel Injection Project....

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Also all your MAP issues will go away when you get the cam sensor going, it's a must for SD, I would run straight Alpha-N until you get that setup.

I tried alpha-N, but I couldn't get enough dynamic range to make it work well at WOT. I'm running alpha-N now and it works well. Have you run both SD and alpha-N? Did you notice any significant differences in terms of performance, fuel economy, uniformity of AFR etc? They say SD is better for varying loads, but what does that mean for a motorcycle in the real world??

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Hi mx_rob, I've been peeking at this thread for a while, but now the time has come to register and tell you this: you're awesome.

Since I bought my first thumper (1996 DR800s) a few months ago I've been looking at those carbs (the BIG DR has dual CV carbs and dual spark) and the crude ignition thinking.....this bike could run so much better. Why sink 600+ euro's into yet another set of carbs when you can enter the 21st century with FI and computer controlled spark. So, thanks for the info and inspiration. I'm really excited to see the "finished" product and hope to start my own FI project soon.

Keep up the good work!! :rant:

;) Glad to be of inspiration. I wasn't so sure about starting a project like this but thought I'd better get out of the withering carb world and learn something. Soon even instruments as awesome as the FCR-MX are going to be paper weights.

Yes, with two carbs you'd have a chunk of money invested. And just the ignition alone is worth every minute I've invested in this project. :banana: Sounds like a single bore TB with a custom Y manifold would be the way to go. You could either go with one injector on the TB or place two smaller injectors in the custom manifold to get the injectors as close to the valves as possible. That's probably what I'd want to do. Hope you get started with FI soon! :eek:

I'll be putting together a presentation on FI like I have for the FCR-MX and GSXR exhaust system. It will have a lot more details and less🤣 for folks who might be interested in going to the even darker side. 🤣

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Hey Rob, What are the chances of you putting together a FI kit and NOT selling it? Would that be feasible?

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Hey Rob, What are the chances of you putting together a FI kit and NOT selling it? Would that be feasible?

:foul: Before it was no.... now, as I progress through the project, I might consider putting some type of kit together that would reduce the amount of custom machining a rider would have to get done to complete the project. I think that would be the real killing point of the project for most people. Lots of thought would need to go into it before I took on anything like that though. I don't really want to work for a living. I just want to play! :bonk:

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Incoming air temp (IAT) sensor position. Measures the air temp that the engine is breathing and makes fuel adjustments accordingly. This is the mount position I chose. The sensor fits right between the shock body and nitrogen chamber. It's not really very close to it actually. The wiring in the background is the remnants from the disected R450 wiring harness.

AirBoxIAT.JPG

You have to remove the carb alignment tits that are on the upper part of the intake manifold so the TB seats fully into the manifold. I just whacked them off with a razor knife.

ManifoldTits.JPG

Mounted TB! It's strange to think that I might not have to ever remove the TB again.... OK, maybe when I buy one of Procycle's 725 kits. I've had BST's and FCR-MX's on and off my bike so many times I've had to replace the manifold and air boot clamps twice. :D

TB_InstalledR.JPG

The fuel pump mount. Attached to the frame on the tab for my CA bike's fuel vapor return valve.... unfortunately I don't think the 48 state bike's have this tab already welded on the frame.

FP_Mount.JPG

Fuel pump mounted and left side of TB. Can you say tight fit? :foul: It's going to be a real visual masterpiece once the regulator, filter/swirl tank and hoses get crammed in there. :bonk: The FP is ugly IMO and will be covered with one of those carbon fiber LT-R450 covers. Or should I leave it in all it's rawness for people to ask W*T*F is that?🤣

FP_Installed.JPG

Edited by mx_rob

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Actually, it doesn't look too bad.... compared with my setup :foul: I have even less room and the only part people notice are the wires (I still haven't installed the side covers).

Seriously, I think once the tank and side covers are installed, no one will notice. Nothing is sticking out and all the wires/hoses are routed neatly. That makes all the difference, IMHO. :bonk:

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You can tell them its a FLUX CAPACITOR.

.

I was thinking the same thing.... "well sir, it's my hydrogen flux capacitor that changes pure water into fuel, the by-product is a very hoppy 6.4 IPA. I haven't perfected the stout yet... it keeps coming out tasting like Guinness... yuck! " :foul: Sorry lads. :bonk:

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:D Before it was no.... now, as I progress through the project, I might consider putting some type of kit together that would reduce the amount of custom machining a rider would have to get done to complete the project. I think that would be the real killing point of the project for most people. Lots of thought would need to go into it before I took on anything like that though. I don't really want to work for a living. I just want to play! :bonk:

HAHA I don't blame you a bit. The machining is the only thing holding me back from giving it a try. I've never done any true machining, and don't have any tools at all for it. The other stuff, while it seems intimidating, would be doable for me. But with all of the elevation changes I do, and the other benefits of FI, it's something I'm drooling over. If you decide to do it, I'm first in line! :foul:

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The machining is the only thing holding me back from giving it a try. I've never done any true machining, and don't have any tools at all for it. The other stuff, while it seems intimidating, would be doable for me. But with all of the elevation changes I do, and the other benefits of FI, it's something I'm drooling over.

Fuel only can be done without any machining, that's what I did. I take it back, there were a few small parts here and there. Mostly I went over to a friends place and used his lathe, but I also got some help from other TT members. I'm sure if you ask around, you can find people to help you. There might be a local metalworking group in your area. Those guys are always itching to do something useful with an old lathe or mill they have sitting the basement :foul:

Spark is difficult to do without some machining. Making a toothed wheel is a challenge, but if you make a decent drawing, you can probably find a local guy that will make it for you. For the O2 sensor bung welding and some very minor fuel rail welding, I took it to a local iron works shop. It took them 5 mins and they charged only $10 each time.

Where there's a will, there's a way. :bonk:

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The way that throttle body is installed it looks like it was made for the DR. :bonk:

Question for Rob and you other EFI gurus:

You mentioned using a single throttle body with a Y tube on the dual inlet DR800 head. Would there be any problems doing that on a 180° parallel twin cylinder engine, as long as you placed the injectors downstream of the Y? Would low speed driveability suffer similar to using an oversized carb?

Cheers,

Lukas

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Yes, with two carbs you'd have a chunk of money invested. And just the ignition alone is worth every minute I've invested in this project. :bonk: Sounds like a single bore TB with a custom Y manifold would be the way to go. You could either go with one injector on the TB or place two smaller injectors in the custom manifold to get the injectors as close to the valves as possible. That's probably what I'd want to do. Hope you get started with FI soon! :foul:

Thanks for answering the question I didn't ask, but was in my head anyway :usa:

Right now the true power is between 4000 and 7500 and it will tolerate cruising just above 3000 in higer gears. You'd expect more from an 800cc single. I hope this will improve when I replace the worn needles/tubes and give the ol BST33's a good cleaning. It's a nice bike and I'm having enough trouble not riding like a complete idiot as it is.....but there's always that nagging feeling it could be a Real Thumper, with the wheelies and all🤣

Things putting me off are the fabrication and the sheer time and dedication. I would also need a donor bike as a test bed, because the DR is my daily driver.

That's enough about me, let the FI-goodness continue :D

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Thanks for answering the question I didn't ask, but was in my head anyway🤣

Right now the true power is between 4000 and 7500 and it will tolerate cruising just above 3000 in higer gears. You'd expect more from an 800cc single. I hope this will improve when I replace the worn needles/tubes and give the ol BST33's a good cleaning. It's a nice bike and I'm having enough trouble not riding like a complete idiot as it is.....but there's always that nagging feeling it could be a Real Thumper, with the wheelies and all :foul:

Things putting me off are the fabrication and the sheer time and dedication. I would also need a donor bike as a test bed, because the DR is my daily driver.

That's enough about me, let the FI-goodness continue :bonk:

Read this:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417178

And this:

http://injection.ambraa.net/#home

:D

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The way that throttle body is installed it looks like it was made for the DR. :bonk:

Question for Rob and you other EFI gurus:

You mentioned using a single throttle body with a Y tube on the dual inlet DR800 head. Would there be any problems doing that on a 180° parallel twin cylinder engine, as long as you placed the injectors downstream of the Y? Would low speed driveability suffer similar to using an oversized carb?

Cheers,

Lukas

The only loss would be the fact that the manifold would not be a straight shot down the intake tract. So some air flow disruption would obviously occur. With a 180 degree twin the throttle body really wouldn't need to be any bigger than what it is for one cylinder... you'll only be breathing down it one cylinder at a time..... in fact, that could actually improve flow because at some points the air flow won't come to a complete halt waiting for another cycle.

But yes, if you were to bolt on a huge TB it would affect low speed operation... maybe not as badly as the same scenario in the carb world due to the injector's superior atomization of the fuel.... but there would certainly be a flow velocity loss down low which could/would affect volumetric efficiency at lower engine speeds.

Edited by mx_rob

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Thanks for the answer. I do have a 46mm Keihin TB from a KTM 690 (654cc) that I could use... Have you ever seen a calculator or formula where you can input HP, RPMs, displacement etc to get an estimate for optimal TB size? HP and torque of my twin (650cc from a Kawi Versys) would be the same, maybe 10% higher than the 690 engine it was originally used on.

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Thanks for the answer. I do have a 46mm Keihin TB from a KTM 690 (654cc) that I could use... Have you ever seen a calculator or formula where you can input HP, RPMs, displacement etc to get an estimate for optimal TB size? HP and torque of my twin (650cc from a Kawi Versys) would be the same, maybe 10% higher than the 690 engine it was originally used on.

http://www.revtronix.com/tech/calculators/throttlebody

http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/MiscCalculators/DaiThrottle.htm

:bonk:

Of course these only figure WFO size based on a bunch of assumed info. The big issue is the pressure drop. Without some pressure drop at WFO your engine is really going to suffer down in the lower throttle positions due to lack of velocity... again, this is much more important when we are talking about a fuel/air mixing device, which a TB really isn't, but the air velocity alone helps fill the combustion chamber at lower engine speeds. The highest pressure drop with the least HP loss would give you the best of the two worlds. According to the Revtronix calculator the 42mm TB I'm putting on my DR650 is the perfect size when considering my VE based on my past dyno runs.

Edited by mx_rob

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I tried alpha-N, but I couldn't get enough dynamic range to make it work well at WOT. I'm running alpha-N now and it works well. Have you run both SD and alpha-N? Did you notice any significant differences in terms of performance, fuel economy, uniformity of AFR etc? They say SD is better for varying loads, but what does that mean for a motorcycle in the real world??

I assume you meant that you tried SD?? Yes, I have run both, most recently switching to SD and sequential, I can say yes that the SD method works better, it is a much better indicator of load on the engine. I don't have any hard numbers but the butt dyno says it runs smoother and has been easier to get a consistent tune.

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Question for Rob and you other EFI gurus:

You mentioned using a single throttle body with a Y tube on the dual inlet DR800 head. Would there be any problems doing that on a 180° parallel twin cylinder engine, as long as you placed the injectors downstream of the Y? Would low speed driveability suffer similar to using an oversized carb?

Fuel injected engines are typically less sensitive to oversized throttle openings than carbureted engines because fuel and air mixing are not directly dependent on velocity through or a pressure differential across the throttle body(TB). I don't see any functional problem with making a Y-shaped intake going to a single TB. The system would likely work better with a plenum of some sort much like automobiles use. Possibly more compact would be using two independent throttle bodies(ITBs) to replace the twin carburetors much like EFI bikes have been using for the last ~10 years. Actually, a number of those four cylinder bikes like the CBR600F4i use two throttle bodies with two throats each. One of those may be simpler to adapt. It could possibly allow using the original airbox and intake hoses too.

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Thanks again Rob and Headtrauma, and sorry for the threadjack.

Unfortunately the space in the frame I am using (LC4 Adventure) is very limited, or I would have kept the twin throttle bodies that came with the 650 twin engine. As it is

they are way too wide and use up too much space.

IMG_3650Large.jpg

However I think I could make it work with a Y and single throttle body without having to replace any of the rear backbone tubing.

IMG_3640Large.jpg

Then I could place the airbox on top, flanked by twin split tanks.

IMG_3741Large.jpg

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Possibly more compact would be using two independent throttle bodies(ITBs) to replace the twin carburetors much like EFI bikes have been using for the last ~10 years. Actually, a number of those four cylinder bikes like the CBR600F4i use two throttle bodies with two throats each. One of those may be simpler to adapt. It could possibly allow using the original airbox and intake hoses too.

That's exactly what this guy did:

http://www.smcomp.com/~smurph/RZ-EFI/tbs.html

These are the same TBs I used (from a Yamaha R6). I needed only one of the four bores available. Using two bores side by side is nice in some ways because the far left bore has the throttle linkage and the far right bore has the TPS. The fuel rail is easily cut and welded to fit. Each injector is 240 cc/min, which is good up to about 80 HP or so using both injectors. They are high impedance, which is nice :bonk:

Notice in the above build, he simply added spacers as needed for alignment. There is a long threaded bolt that holds all four bores together, that can be used for the two cylinder setup. I chose to remove the slides, but in the above build they were left in. Get a couple of the R6 stock manifolds ($15 each), work out the bolt pattern, and you might be on your way to mounting the TBs.

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