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XR600R Battery-Anyone Use This One?

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http://www.batterymart.com/p-12v-2ah-sealed-lead-acid-batteryf1.html

I'm in the process of making the old XR600R actually street legal so I can do my ride test on it and get the MC Endorsement on my CDL. Being I don't have the magic button (E-Start) on my bike, all I need is a battery large enough to buffer the current for the HID lighting and run my lights for 20 minutes or whatever it is with the engine off.

Most people seem to either go CRF450 for their battery swaps, or they buy/build a battery pack out of AA rechargeables. I'm looking for something with a bit more capacity and durability than the AA battery packs.

Will the above battery work for my needs?

Nice and thin, nice and cheap, and nice and small, thinking it'd be the perfect under the seat battery without having to stuff it into my airbox and possibly choke the airflow up some.

Thanks in advance for any help, and I'm sorry if I missed this one while reading up on batteries on TT.:thumbsup:

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Why use a wet cell battery at all?

Look at an 8 cell "A" or sub "C" nimh pack that would give you 12+ fully charged. Plus they are very durable.

They can be built about anyway you like.

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Has this bike ever been street plated in the past? If it hasn't, it is technically illegal to street plate dual sported dirt bikes any more in CA.

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yup, I've had the bike for something like 8 years now and it was plated by the previous owner. I think it's got an old enough plate where I don't have to worry about it being revoked.

The battery packs concern me to a degree. If you have one battery that craps out then the whole pack craps out doesn't it?

Also I'm not sure what the durability is v.s. the size for anything larger than a AA battery pack.

OTOH it'd be cheaper to test cells and replace one rechargeable battery than having the whole battery crap out on a lead acid battery.

Durability and Reliability are my concerns while trying to get a battery that will fit in any position. One reason I was looking at the sealed batteries. Lead Acid batteries have been around for a long time, and my experience with rechargeable batteries have been dismal. Granted those were largely NiCad's and not NiMh's.

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If the bike has a current plate you are fine. If it has not been registered for 5 years, you may not get the plate back.

After 2004 you cannot get an off road bike street plate. I have been told they are even pulling plates from post 2004 bikes!

However some, few DMVs will work with you a little.

Just got mine payed up after almost 5 years out and it was going to run $400 :thumbsup:. But they let me fill out a non-op and it was just $135

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I run the 10 cell AA NiMh pack. It works ok. It does not keep my HID headlight on for more than a few minutes at most. I've never tried one, but the small gel cells are not all that much better. I am going to try a four pack of A123 18650 LiFePO4 cells. It's about the same capacity as the AA's (1200mah)but I think it will work a lot better. I'm actually going to run two batteries as I have 2 separate electrical systems. There are also the 26650 A123 cells that are 2300mah but they will not fit so well. Finding a place for the battery is a real issue.

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You can get AA cells in 2700ma now and the 123 cells are 2200ma

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Hmmm.. well that info IS helpful. I'm really trying to get into the 2Ah range... What does 2700MA translate into for Ah? Something like .027Ah or .27Ah?

BEGIN EDIT....

Ok I just looked up mAh and Ah. Wiki (suspect as usual) says 1mAh is 1/1000Ah. So 2700mAh would then be 2.7Ah at 1.5vdc. Adding that up then it'd be possible to get 2.7Ah with AA or Sub-C cells at 12-15vDC. Ok I got that one straight in my noggin but this doesn't make a lot of sense then if a AA battery pack will only run HID lights for "a couple of minutes". even at 100watts or 8 amps to make math easier that would mean that a 2.7Ah AA battery pack SHOULD run the example headlight for 20 minutes before dead.

Is the issue here that HID's require a certain level of volts left in the battery pack to spark the light, and thus the battery pack doesn't retain a true 12vdc longer than a couple of minutes so the HID's won't fire?

I generally make a habit of leaving my original message/post intact even with mistakes when I edit. Hopefully this doesn't cause any extra confusion.

END EDIT.....

I should have said it to begin with but another aspect I'm considering for this battery besides a buffer/powersource for the HID lighting is to be able to recharge my cell phone or run the laptop for a while without having to actually run the bike. 2Ah is likely a bit small for something like that, but trying to work with the size constraints that Honda gave us.

35watts/12vdc= 2.9A so a 2Ah battery would in theory allow about 40minutes of run time in a perfect world before it was dead. Likely closer to 30 minutes and I hope DMV wouldn't actually TEST the run time. It'd piss me off if the bastards intentionally caused damage to my battery.

The size of the AA's do make that attractive, buttttttttttt........

Edited by 1985 XR600R

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Oh boy, where do I start.

First the law. The headlight only needs to work when the engine is off. The law is 15 or 20 minutes for the tail light only. Now I ride trail at night. I want my headlight on for at least a fem minutes with the engine off.

Now, what is your load? I'm going to guess a standard 35 watt HID headlight and about another amp for your taillight. I have HID and mine uses right around 43 watts or about 3.6 amps from the battery. The HID ballast is not 100% efficient. In order to put 35 watts into the bulb the ballast needs a little more. The excess is wasted as heat. Add an amp for the taillight and you get 4.6. Call it 4.5 for simplicity. That is the baseline load. Now turn signals use about 3 amps for normal bulbs, the stoplight another 2, and the horn 10. Those are not normally on so I discount them for run time calculations. Changing to LED tail, stop, and turn signals saves power and extends runtime.

It takes way more juice to start a HID. I generally use 10 amps for a fraction of a second, and immediately dropping to 6 amps. It then drops to the normal 3.6 amps over the first minute. That means it's a lot easier on your battery to start the engine before turning on the HID.

OK so you now know your load. It's time for the battery. Those 2700mah AA Nimh batteries are usually a bit optimistic. Most are a bit less than they say. They also do not do well at large currents. For our load derating them down to about 2000mah should be about correct. That should still run the lights for 26 minutes. I would still be surprised to get more than 15 but that should be good enough I think.

It helps to use batteries that are more designed for high current. Here is a decent one the Elite 1700mah AA cell. You will get a real 1700mah out of these. Unlike "normal" NiMh cells these can do big currents with no problem I bought a lot of batteries from www.cheapbatterypacks.com. The will sell you the cells for $2.25 each and will build you a pack for $32.50. These are way better cells than you get if you go with the overpriced BajaDesigns AA pack.

I'm about to switch over to LiFePO4 cells in a 4 pack. I'm going to go with 18650 cells that are 1100mah. That should be good for at least 10 minutes and that is all I'm really looking for. If that is not enough I'll upgrade to the larger 26650 sells that are 2300mah.

If I had a good place to put a gel cell type battery I would consider it, but I would need atleast a 4 amp hour version. I have no room for that.

Clear as mud?

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You can get AA cells in 2700ma now and the 123 cells are 2200ma

I was refering to the AA cells that I am running now. They are a special type that can better handle overcharge and are quite a bit more robust than the 2700 mah cells you refer to. My cells are 1100mah. The smaller 18650 (18mm dia x 65mm long) A123 LiFEPO4 that I plann on going with are also 1100mah. The larger 26650 (26mm dia x 65mm long) versions are 2300mah.

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Thanks for taking the time to type all that out and explain it Cleonard! I appreciate it immensely. Thank you also for the link.

Are those LiFePO4 batteries that much of an improvement over the Elite AA 1700mAh NiMh batteries to justify the expense?

I found some 10Ah LiFePO4 batteries that if were built into a battery pack I think would fit nicely on top of my rear fender underneath the rack I built. I need to pull the diamond plate off the racks frame and do some measuring but a quick look at those LiFePO4 batteries looks like I could go overkill and get some decent battery power with a custom pack.

It's looking like about $150 for the 4 LiFePO4 batteries and a 20Amp PCM board for it, not counting an any voltage charge controller from the one site I was looking around after checking out Cheapbatterypacks.com.

I'm really glad that I asked about that one battery because thanks to you guys I've learned I can actually get a better battery with a battery pack.

:thumbsup:

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Being a123 cells can sustain 100+ amp loads they are kinda overkill if you ask me. any 10-20c 3s lipo should be enough to handle a headlight and be way cheaper.

just my 2 pennies. :thumbsup:

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You will not get total cap rating out of any lithium based cell. Figure 75-80 max. if you wan them to live. You can get full capacity from a nimh or nicad.

20c lipos are cheap and getting them in 3-4000ma capacity is easy. About the cheapest I have seen are the KONG power brand, but you get what you pay for.

For the cost and durability I still like nimh cells and you can get them in a 2700ma cap "A" cell and build them anyway you like.

I believe the 1100ma cells are nicads, which are not as robust as NIMH cells. Nimh will hold a charge longer unattended where nicad loss about 10% every 24 hrs.

Plus the nimh and nicad cells will not require safety circut, but still should not be fully discharged.

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You will not get total cap rating out of any lithium based cell. Figure 75-80 max. if you wan them to live. You can get full capacity from a nimh or nicad.

20c lipos are cheap and getting them in 3-4000ma capacity is easy. About the cheapest I have seen are the KONG power brand, but you get what you pay for.

For the cost and durability I still like nimh cells and you can get them in a 2700ma cap "A" cell and build them anyway you like.

I believe the 1100ma cells are nicads, which are not as robust as NIMH cells. Nimh will hold a charge longer unattended where nicad loss about 10% every 24 hrs.

Plus the nimh and nicad cells will not require safety circut, but still should not be fully discharged.

100% correct. Ill just add two things. Nicads are the most antiquated useless battery technology on the planet. I wouldnt use nicads in anything. nimh are far superior in every way(although i think there real bad for the environment). and there not anymore expensive either. With that said Lipo and li-ion cells loose very little charge at rest. also you wouldnt need to worry about over discharging a lipo unless you left the lights on. and if they werent constantly cycled you wouldn't need to worry about balancing the cells either. With all that said. for what our bikes need i would agree a bunch of aa or c nimh would suffice just fine, and you would never realy have to worry about them, other than after the bike sat for a while(a week or more) the batteries would be useless untill they were charged again.

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That all makes sense to me so far. I'm pretty ignorant to this whole battery thing, well to a lot of things really, so I try and figure it out, ask questions, think about what's been said, learn and come to that "holy grail" - an educated decision rather than one made of ignorance.

You folks have been playing this game longer than I have, and the advice on the NiMh cells make sense. Looks like I'll start off with a NiMh battery pack to keep it simple and compact.

Does anyone know if all the NiMh "Elite" batteries that CheapBatteryPacks.com sells are the high discharge variety?

Also are Tenergy brand batteries crap? Since CheapBatteryPacks.com was recommended I'll go through them, I just found Tenergy battery packs while looking around online and was curious about them.

Thanks again guys!

ETA:

Ewww NiCads!! Now THOSE I know are $h!t!!!! My parents bought a bunch of them when I was a kid hoping to save money by recharging batteries. Leave them in a drawer for a week and they'd be DEAD. Total waste of money, that's pretty much my experience with using rechargeable batteries.

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Cheap battery packs is really not that cheap, but they do good work. Batteries Plus will build anything you want to and they are all over Ca.

Ternegy cells are OK, but hard to beat sanyos really. I have had a few ternegys go bad after little use.

Do a little searching on Ebay, I have good luck there.

If you just want a basic AA battery you can get that at Radio Shack that will work.

If you want a little more with little weight gain the "A" size is a better bet. Here are some on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/10-NiMH-A-Size-1-2v-2700-mAh-Batteries-Battery-w-Tabs_W0QQitemZ350322929280QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5190dfae80

If it looks like to much to try, I can build it easy for you. Been doing that for almost 35 years.

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Cheap battery packs is really not that cheap, but they do good work. Batteries Plus will build anything you want to and they are all over Ca.

Ternegy cells are OK, but hard to beat sanyos really. I have had a few ternegys go bad after little use.

Do a little searching on Ebay, I have good luck there.

If you just want a basic AA battery you can get that at Radio Shack that will work.

If you want a little more with little weight gain the "A" size is a better bet. Here are some on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/10-NiMH-A-Size-1-2v-2700-mAh-Batteries-Battery-w-Tabs_W0QQitemZ350322929280QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5190dfae80

If it looks like to much to try, I can build it easy for you. Been doing that for almost 35 years.

Quick question, Could I use these 10 (A) batteries from ebay and use them in place of the battery in my 650L? Will they charge from the bikes charging system alright?

I found these on ebay, LiFePO4,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200442782851&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Could these be used?

Edited by zx12r

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Do those A cells give anything over the NiMh AA's that Cleonard mentioned being more accurately 2000mAh when rated at 2700mAh?

For the cost involved in batteries $40 for those A's in the link above, would they deliver anything more than these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/12-x-AA-2500-mAh-Rechargeable-Ni-MH-Batteries-Cell-6056_W0QQitemZ260401952972QQcategoryZ163773QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m8QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DMW%26its%3DC%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D20%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8341018276179681021?????

$40 v.s. $7.50... Are the A cells rated for a higher discharge than the standard NiMh AA's?

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Quick question, Could I use these 10 (A) batteries from ebay and use them in place of the battery in my 650L? Will they charge from the bikes charging system alright?

I found these on ebay, LiFePO4,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200442782851&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Could these be used?

I actually have some of those LiFePO4 cells on the way from that guy. He will even weld tabs to the batteries for another 30 cents a pop. I'm going to test them to see if they are really A123 cells and if they are I'll be happy. Hell I'll be happy even if they are knock offs if they work they way I need them to. You only need four of these cells for a 12 volt system. Don't be holding your breath on my report because it's usually a few weeks to get delivery from China.

These cells (18650 LiFePO4 18mmx65mm)are smaller than what is being used to replace the starting battery in a bike like the 650L. You need the larger 26650 A123 cells for that.

Those cheap AA Nimh cells might work as a lighting battery. They are for sure not 2500mah. There is no chance they could be used as a starting battery.

Those A cells are not high discharge, but they should do the 5 amps that a lighting battery needs to supply. Again forget starting with these, they are not up to that.

Unless you have experience soldering directly to batteries buy cells that already have tabs attached. It's easy to damage a battery by overheating it when soldering. You need a high watt iron and you have to be real quick or it will melt the plastic seals in the cell. It's easy to solder tabs together with no issues.

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Nope, I've got no experience soldering directly to batteries. My soldering actually sucks truth be told. It's functional I guess for wires, but for soldering a battery... I'd be afraid of butchering it.

A lighting battery is all I need, the old XR600R is a kick start only. I'm jonesin' for a XR650L but with the way things are going it's not looking to be in my future. Anything I do for awhile will be a run whatcha brung sort of deal, and for me that's going to have to be my old '85 XR600R.

Cleonard do you have any idea if all the "Elite" batteries are high discharge batteries, or if it's just the Elite AA's?

A 5000mAh Sub-C cell battery pack is what I'm thinking to get the extra run time on the headlight without having to use a flashlight with the engine off. Only being able to run the HID for a couple of minutes like you mentioned is a bit discouraging but like most things could be worked around. Heck it might be a good excuse to buy a Baja Designs "Stryker" for backup lighting uses, or to be used with the engine off... there I go thinking about spending more money that's not there again....

Thanks again guys! :banana:

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