Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  

rattling sound

Recommended Posts

So I just bought a used 2005 CRF450R. I went riding today and probably dumped the bike a few times as I was riding in rutted out sand. The engine started to make a noticeable rattling sound when in idle and very low power of the first gear. I felt around the engine with my hand looking for the rattle and felt that it was coming from within that very top compartment of the engine.

Is it safe to say I just need to do a valve clearance check? What else should I check while I'm in there?

p.s. Croom is garbage when it's really dry, everything is whooped out, rutted, with huge mounds of sand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suggest check you cam chain tensioner. I have an 03 and it went out, luckily I cought it in time. Put in a manual one or you can make a manual one out of the stock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Those can be adjusted by that nut in the top center of the pic. The exhaust usually don't go bad.

huh? you can adjust your exhaust valve clearance via the decompressor arm?? :ride:

lol, i have a .pdf service manual and the only thing it shows is how to take the bike apart and measure a few things. sometimes the manuals can be pretty confusing too. nowhere in the manual does it say "well under this very specific condition do this".

and thanks! i only paid like $80 for it :lol:

yeah I have that same .pdf one...its kinda junk IMO, thats probably why we got it for free.

youre going to probably have to take your cam assembly off and re-shim the exhaust valves.

and by the looks of things.. your decompressor gap looks pretty damn big, but it could just be the angle of the pictures.

also, make sure you are at TDC when measuring your valve clearances :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yup, it's all top dead center.

Re-shimming them? Isn't that just a temporary fix anyways?

yes its just temporary, but on the exhaust valves it should last a very long time. its not a big deal at all to shim the exhausts. but if yours are closed right up there might be something more serious involved.. its kinda hard to say.

shimming the intakes is more serious of an issue, but its still ok.

how many times have you shimmed already? you can usually shim two or three times before a rebuild is required. the intakes usually need to be shimmed twice for each time you shim the exhausts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's what I was wondering, because they're so close it's like I would have to go with pretty much a no shim width? It doesn't look like even if I did re-shim it that it would create enough space. That's why I'm wondering if I need new valves and springs... :lol:

I just got the bike so this is the first time I've done anything to it, how many times the guy before me has, I'm not sure...

would adjusting the decompresser or rocker arm make it all good? It doesn't seem like playing with that decompreser rm bolt would do anything, it doesn't control the height of the arm or anything else? If I went in on the side and played with the decompresser assembly...?

no, I think the guy who said you could adjust it via decompressor was wrong..

yes you can easily shim them. im going to assume that your exhausts are closed right up, with a clearance of .00mm.

the clearance is supposed to be .28mm or .30mm, im not 100% sure off the top of my head.

anyways, youre going to need to create a .30mm gap in there.. so youre going to need a shim thats .30mm smaller than what you currently have which is no problem at all. the exhaust shims are fat buggers so getting a smaller one will not be a problem at all. my hotcam shim kit has shims that range from 1.20mm to 3.0mm I believe. and the exhausts take around a 2.5mm. so you have LOTS of room to use a smaller shim.

youre going to need a digital caliper, measure your current exhaust shim size, and minus .30mm (depending on your current clearance) from your current shim size, and order that smaller shim, install it, and voila, youve now got the proper clearance in your exhaust valves :banana:

but, theres always a chance that you could need new valves, springs, etc.. but im kinda doubting it at this point. it all depends on your intakes.

it also depends on how many hours are on the bike, how many of those hours its spend at max RPM, and how often the airfilter has been cleaned, and whether or not its been done properly. I would start with a shim, its easy and cheap. if all goes wrong (they tighten up again) then its time to get a new top end, or get new valves, springs, etc.. and you HAVE to get your seats re-cut by a proper mechanic, not your local dealership, not your local engine building shop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well I guess that's what I'm going to have to do then. Looks like I won't be riding anytime soon now that I have to order those :banana:

How much do new top ends cost?

New valves are like $30 each with $200 for springs right?

Thanks for your help Santan9

I would recommend ordering the whole hotcam shim kit (60 or so dollars, for like 200 shims) as well as a digital caliper (20$) and a set of combination feeler gauges (theres like 20 or so of them together on a ring for like 5$) and thats basically all youll ever need.

price depends on what you replace, what you re-use, and what aftermarket parts you use.

yes, OEM valves are like 30$ each with the springs being quite a bit more expensive. if you plan on going that route, dont buy from a local dealer (theyre VERY expensive), I recommend buying online (ebay and search price + shipping: lowest first) to ensure youre getting the best price possible for OEM parts, or look up the ebay seller: hondaeasttoledo, theyre the cheapest ive been able to find for the EXACT same OEM honda parts that the local stealership offers, but for 3/4 of the price.

OR, you can buy a whole new bolt on head from bigborethumers (or anyone else that sells engine heads) which costs approx 600$. and is ready to be bolted on and last you 200+ engine hours easily. or you can rebuild your head for around 300-400$, but make sure you get a professional to cut the seats, even if that means shipping it far away. I made the mistake of letting some local goon cut my seats last summer and he basically ruined them costing me thousands of dollars, 1500$ to be exact. I would also recommend using SS intake valves instead of the stock titanium. you will lose 1 or 2 HP due to stainless steel being a tad heavier than titanium, but they will last WAAYY longer.

also, its recommended that you buy a new piston, from that ebay seller I mentioned earlier will sell you a piston, rings, wrist pin, for like 100$ or less which is amazingly cheap. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-OEM-Piston-Kit-2004-2008-CRF450R-CRF450-CRF-450_W0QQitemZ300400122491QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item45f13e1a7b

so, depending on which route you take, and what you all replace, a complete top end rebuild can cost anywhere from 4/500$ to 11-1200$

but dont let all that scare you, its not likely that you will need a new top end, especially if your intakes are fine. theyre what you should be more worried about, not necessarily the exhausts.

I would try shimming it and see if that fixes your problems, you might get another year or two out of it, you might get only 1 or 2 more rides, its worth it though. youre going to need a shim kit eventually, it will save you hundreds of dollars in the long run.

good luck, and remember: when you re-shim your exhaust valves, your decompressor clearance will change. some manuals *clymer* say to set your decompressor clearance as .35mm, but I highly recommend, as do others on TT (right guys?) to set it as .28mm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just a little curious right now:excuseme:. Are you checking your clearances correctly? Are you sure that you are at top dead center? Do all of your timing marks line up properly? Did your cam chain jump a tooth possibly? I can't see the cam lobes to well from the pics, but they almost look like they are pointing up at the 1 o'clock position. I would double check all that I have listed, then check your clearances again. Please post intake and exhaust values :banana:. Thanks. Just want to make sure you are doing this right so you don't have to spend more than you have to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm just a little curious right now:excuseme:. Are you checking your clearances correctly? Are you sure that you are at top dead center? Do all of your timing marks line up properly? Did your cam chain jump a tooth possibly? I can't see the cam lobes to well from the pics, but they almost look like they are pointing up at the 1 o'clock position. I would double check all that I have listed, then check your clearances again. Please post intake and exhaust values :banana:. Thanks. Just want to make sure you are doing this right so you don't have to spend more than you have to.

first thing he says... http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9255103&postcount=8

but yeah, more pics/details would help and possibly save you lots of money. I do find it weird that a few crashes and all of a sudden his exhausts are closed right up??

but he says he bought it used, and barely rode it.. im hoping he didnt buy someone elses problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
first thing he says... http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9255103&postcount=8

but yeah, more pics/details would help and possibly save you lots of money. I do find it weird that a few crashes and all of a sudden his exhausts are closed right up??

but he says he bought it used, and barely rode it.. im hoping he didnt buy someone elses problem.

Yeah I know he said that. Doesn't mean he was right. You would be surprised at how many people can't do that right. Do a search on how many people line their timing marks up incorrectly and set their cam off by one tooth. There are a bunch :lol:! Not trying to argue with anyone. Thats why I said DOUBLE CHECK these things. Better to be safe than sorry.:banana:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.hotcamsinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cMedia.viewInstallationVideo&videoid=2

very good info from santan9. check out the video link above. it from hotcams. they have other how to videos on their site.if you do need to reshim, stuff a rag or two down in the slot where the cam chain goes down. this is so you dont accidentally drop anything ( i.e. shims) down there. also, zip tie the chain to the cam chain sprocket so you dont lose the timing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
http://www.hotcamsinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cMedia.viewInstallationVideo&videoid=2

very good info from santan9. check out the video link above. it from hotcams. they have other how to videos on their site.if you do need to reshim, stuff a rag or two down in the slot where the cam chain goes down. this is so you dont accidentally drop anything ( i.e. shims) down there. also, zip tie the chain to the cam chain sprocket so you dont lose the timing.

thanks.

I was also going to mention the zip tie trick so you dont lose your timing, also, you should ziptie the chain to the frame or somewhere keeping it tight.. you dont want to let it slack and get loose and have it fall off the bottom (crank) sprocket. it happened to me before and was a total PITA trying to get it back on. had to take the shifter off, starot cover off, go borrow a flywheel puller. etc.. its easier to just not let that damn chain fall down :banana:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct me if wrong, but for top dead center on the compression stroke shouldn't the cam lobes be facing rearward?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nope. not right. i dont think you have tdc compression stroke correct. your cam lobes should be pointing back and slightly up. the way you have it right now could be putting tension on the valves giving you a tight reading. also, take the sparkplug out and use a pencil or big ziptie to verify the piston is at the top of the stroke. check out this thread for finding tdc.

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=877910&highlight=

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

good thing you posted those pictures, I think I know what you did.

its a 4 stroke... so for every revolution of the cam, the crank rotates twice (I think)

youre right by lining up the crank dot with the triangle, BUT, you need to do one more revolution.. youre only half ways at TDC. rotate the engine over slowly and the cam will only do a half revolution, but that crank mark will do a full one and you will be lined up again. then youre at proper TDC.

the cam lobes should be pointing a little up wards, and back.

good thing you other guys caught that simple little mistake, I cant believe I missed it! :lol::banana::banana:

like the others said, if youre still not too sure, take the spark plug out and stick something in the spark plug hole and let it sit on the piston gently, preferrably plastic just in case. then rotate the engine over and your pencil or ziptie or whatever will go up and down as the piston does... watch for it at its highest point (its super easy to rotate if you put a 8mm allen key into the crank where you lined up that dot with the triangle on the right hand side), you can usually get it to within fractions of a millimeter.

the link that motogeek posted is not for TDC, its for timing... there are 2 marks on the cam sprocket, youre on the wrong one.

also: anyone notice that big missing piece on the center lobe of his cam... w.t.f is with that? surely its not a damaged cam is it?

so just give the engine another half rotation, then youre at proper TDC, and then you can start properly measuring your valve specs :banana: be sure to post what you measure too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wow I feel dumb haaha. Found the real TDC. Measured my valves. Everything seems perfect

Left Intake = .006

Right Intake = .005

Left Exhaust = .011

Right Exhaust = .010 - .011, it's right inbetween, I could get .011 in there but it was a struggle

So hahahah...what is the rattling noise from? Is that just how these crf450rs sound, I mean I know they have that sound a little? The rattling definitely got worse as the day progressed and once I was at the end it was really making the sound, and I'm 100% it was coming from the top end.

My cam sprocket and everything seems to be on time perfect, rotates great, aligns perfectly.

What else is there I can do?

On a side note, does anyone have a link that can show me how to make sure my actual drive chain is in spec?

haha its ok, ive done the same mistake. the rattling noise could be anything, these crfs are generally pretty noisy/loud with their rocker arm assembly, its hard to say though but if it runs and starts fine, I would say its nothing to worry about. but its hard to say without me being there.

not 100% sure on the chain, but ive always done it this way: theres a screw around the half way point of your chain slider, if you can fit 2 fingers under that then youre good to go. theres also side to side play and a way to measure that, but im not too sure. I havnt had a problem with my chain yet! its an o-ring with around 100 hours on it.

have you double checked your decompressor arm clearance?

-find TDC

-put the .11 (.28mm) feeler gauge under the right exhaust valve, so it lifts the rocker arm a tiny bit.

then put a .28, or .30mm since your .28 is being used, and adjust the decompressor arm clearance if needed. it is a 8mm open end wrench and a flat head screwdriver :banana:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Double check your cam chain tensioner operation. When mine went it kind of sounded like a really, really, loose drive chain at speed. The noise was loud at idle and only got louder when I revved it up.

If you find that the CCT has failed, I would recommend a manual cam chain tensioner for a replacement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I'm just a dumb ars and don't know what I'm talking about:bonk:. I guess I should just listen to the others that are giving such great advice about shimming your valves when the piston isn't at top dead center:worthy:. Since I don't know what I'm talking about listen to jspicket (he knows what he is talking about :banana: really) and check your cam chain tensioner, and seriously consider buying a manual one. If your cam chain tensioner checks out, your cam chain may be streched out. There are other things that can cause abnormal noises, but lets take it one thing at a time here. Sorry to come off as a grump, but just because you have read a few posts (or have 1,000 + posts) doesn't make you mechanic (some think this qualifies). Be careful of the advice you get. Keep us informed and we will get you back on the track or trails (maybee with a few bumps along the way).:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
^ I never said that I was an expert and as soon as someone told me that I was not at top dead center I thankfully took the advice and went out to my garage and checked it. If I were a mechanic I wouldn't be sitting here posting pictures of the engine asking what I'm doing wrong. No need to cop an attitude XC Kx250. I never said you didn't know what you are talking about, sorry that I indirectly bruised your flower sensitive ego.

"Is it safe to say I just need to do a valve clearance check? What else should I check while I'm in there?"

Now, having said that I thank you for your reply XC-Kx250, I'm looking for all the help that I can get. How can I check the cam chain tensioner?

I believe he was talking about me because I had assumed you were at the proper TDC. I totally forgot that the marks will line up twice (2 crank revolutions per 1 cam revolution), but only one of the marks are correct.

youve already done valve clarance check. Im stumped as to what you should check next. there is a thread already in the crf450r forum where a guy asks about his CCT and someone in there explains how to check it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Reply with:

Sign in to follow this  

  • Similar Content

    • By 33KTM350
      I just bought a Magura hydraulic clutch for my 2014 CRF450R.  Bought it thinking install would be easy, and I'm not sure that's the case now that I have the product in my hands.  I have searched the forums, YouTube, etc for install help specifically for my model year (2013 and 2014 are same really), and haven't found anything specific for the 2013-2014 model install at all.  Instructions from Magura are TERRIBLE, and are not specific at all to the Honda - generic instructions - so I'm debating if I want to return the product, cuz I don't want trouble or a big install job.  Question: for the 2013-2014 CRF450R install ONLY of a Magura Hymec hydraulic clutch - other model years are different and thus it won't be helpful for other model years - do you have any tips or feedback?  My concerns are below...
      1.  The 2014 model has a sleeve behind the clutch actuation arm that the Magura clutch slave cylinder fits into.  Stock, the sleeve holds one end of the cable, with a nut on the other end to keep the cable end tight in the sleeve.  The Magura slave cylinder, however, slides into the mounting sleeve  - but does NOT have a nut: the tension from the clutch actuation arm pulling on the metal Magura slave cyl tip end is apparently supposed to keep the Magura slave cylinder tight in the mounting sleeve.  Q: Will the Magura slave fit in to the mounting sleeve easily, stay tight, and is there any adjustment needed in order to keep the 4-6mm of freeplay that Magura recommends?  How easy is it to get the Magura slave fitted into the sleeve and the metal tip in place?  Is there enough freeplay between slave and tip end to mount in actuating arm AND the holding sleeve, so that the holding sleeve doesn't need to be unbolted?  
      2. The stock clutch cable and OEM setup runs out of the mounting sleeve (see pics marked "metal starts", and then runs through a metal sleeve that routes the cable through the engine compartment - keeping the cable away from the hot parts of the engine case, so as not to melt the cable insulation (I believe).  That metal sleeve is about 6-8 inches in length.  The Magura clutch cable, on the other hand, exits the Magura slave cylinder at an angle - yet has no such metal routing.  I don't think the OEM metal routing sleeve will accept the Magura cable either, so a) the OEM metal routing sleeve would have to be removed first before installing the Magura - and then b) you have to hope that the Magura cable can be routed in such a way with zip ties holding the hydraulic line that line will not touch or be close to the hot metal engine casing as you route it through the engine.  Q: how easy was it to get the OEM clutch cable and metal routing sleeve out?  Easy as unscrewing the nut on the other end of the OEM cable, on the other side of the black rubber cable flange in my pics?   
      3.  My stock clutch pull isn't bad.  I just like the feel of a hydro clutch.  Any feedback on how much better feeling and easier pull will be with the Magura?  What's your feedback on the difference?  FYI, I'm leaving my clutch plates and springs stock.    
       




    • By Eric Blasiman
      We have a 2016 CRF450R with about 11 hours out. never ridden hard always check the oil and change when needed along with the air filter. Took care of the recall that was required as well. Well when riding the bike was stalled out. Went to try and kick start the bike again. the kick start lever just back up jamming my knee into the handle bars and some how ended up cracking the case right by where the kick start goes through the case. Has any one had this happen or heard of this happening? What is the cause? 
    • By crfjunky1320
      Any advice on what should be replaced while I have the top end off for a valve replacement. Will do headgasket and springs of course, anything other parts you would recommend while I'm going at it?
       
      Thanks!
    • By Ron Whitfeld
      The dirtbike is on it's forth year right now on the same motor job. I have to jump start it. Is it worth me trading for a 2009 650 brute force with7000 miles? Need some expert advice. Thanks 
    • By Lucas Hansen
      Just wondering what you guys do to remove black marks on your seat. My 08 crf450r has the red/black seat, and after each ride there are some black marks on the red from my riding pants. Not scuff marks, more like patches of black residue from my pants rubbing on the seat. I’ve tried the magic eraser which seemed to do the trick, but lately they seem like they aren’t coming off. Also tried scrubbing bubbles with a brush and no luck. Not too worried cuz I have an spare OEM seat, but I’d like to keep this one nice. Any ideas? Maybe I shouldn’t wear black pants?
×