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Engine rattle/vibration videos.. What could it be?

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My bike is making a rattle/vibration. I noticed this when I first fired it up this year. The only thing I did to the engine over the winter was check the valves, and the piston and timing chain were done 25 hours ago. I rode 4 days with it like this, and it runs great, but I'd like to know why it's making this noise. My friend said cam chain tensioner, but I removed that it looks like it's functioning fine. I can try a new one, but I'm doubtfull it would make a change. Checked the valves today, left intake 0.001 tight at 0.005, right intake dead on OEM spec 0.006, and exhaust are both 0.001 looser than OEM specs. Cam sprocket bolts were tight, chain tension felt normal, and decomp weight and pin all looked fine.

Two videos I took today where you can hear the rattling sound:

http://www.youtube.com/user/emerybrian330#p/u/2/NsTtCtYQYmo

http://www.youtube.com/user/emerybrian330#p/u/1/_tdUvicH0PM

My friend said maybe water pump. I opened the cover, it looks fine to me. There is a little bit play when rotated forwards and backwards and if I force it I can make it move up and down just a tiny bit, which I assume is normal since there is a rubber seal in there. No coolant was coming out the weep hole, and trans oil drained out the same amount I added (no coolant leaking into trans). Here is a video of the impellar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/emerybrian330#p/u/0/tRrovKdiz0U

Any thoughts?

Pulling in the clutch makes no change to the sound (question asked in my thread about the tensioner).

Edit:

It's an '07, 100 hours, stock valves

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If you can't find it with those basics, pull the right side cover with waterpump off, and check the roller bearing on the balancer shaft. Mine went to hell and took the balancer shaft and needle bearing on the other side with it too. If it is the prob and you catch it in time its only 5-6 bucks to fix. if not caught in time its almost $200. good luck.

Where exactly? Any parts in this pic? Or are you talking about deeper into the engine?

450waterpump.jpg

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Where exactly? Any parts in this pic? Or are you talking about deeper into the engine?

450waterpump.jpg

yes, you take the whole water pump off, then you take the counter balancer assembly off, its very simple.

you just need to pop the shift lever off, and the stator cover, and it slides right out. make sure you mark all the gears with a sharpie so you dont lose your timing on the counter balancer, its pretty simple.

http://shop.thumpertalk.com/oem.asp?partcategory=141821&manufacturer=3&category=3&year=2005&model=3351

you need to take nut #5 off with a special 40$ tool, or a flathead screwdriver and a hammer, with a penny in between the crank and clutch gears to keep the engine from rolling over while you hammer.

then replace bearing #8 and #9.

now that I think of it... that rattling sounds MIGHT possibly be coming from the counter balancer, or its bearings. its very hard to tell until you take it apart. same for you ultragtanon

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yes, you take the whole water pump off, then you take the counter balancer assembly off, its very simple.

you just need to pop the shift lever off, and the stator cover, and it slides right out. make sure you mark all the gears with a sharpie so you dont lose your timing on the counter balancer, its pretty simple.

http://shop.thumpertalk.com/oem.asp?partcategory=141821&manufacturer=3&category=3&year=2005&model=3351

you need to take nut #5 off with a special 40$ tool, or a flathead screwdriver and a hammer, with a penny in between the crank and clutch gears to keep the engine from rolling over while you hammer.

then replace bearing #8 and #9.

now that I think of it... that rattling sounds MIGHT possibly be coming from the counter balancer, or its bearings. its very hard to tell until you take it apart. same for you ultragtanon

And it should be very obvious if these bearings are bad? I'll go pull it apart now and post what I find.

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And it should be very obvious if these bearings are bad? I'll go pull it apart now and post what I find.

not very obvious, but just play with the shaft, pull it up, down, left and right and see if it wiggles, it shouldnt, it should be 100% solid. id be willing to bet its not quite solid, and it wiggles a little bit.. thats not right and could also be the cause if you have a leaking water pump.

Brian your bike sounds fine. what happened to the nice silver plastics,saving for new season?

have you seen his videos? I dont think it sound fine at all... even with SS valves mine isnt even that loud. definitely some rattling sound somewhere, but like him, I have no idea where.

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also, I see that you say you can move the impeller shaft up and down.. thats not good either, definitely need a water pump bearing.

and the reason your water pump bearing is bad is because of the counter balancer moving around.

the reason you counter balancer is moving around is because the bearing is bad, #9 in the micro fiche that I posted.

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yes I watched the video. It cant hurt to check but all 4 strokes after a few years has a rattle or two and that does not mean there is something wrong.I not saying there is nothing wrong but the bike sounds fine to me. Remember this is all over video if I was there it would be easier to tell. Good luck lets us know what you find.

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what was the clearance for the de-compression arm?

Where, approximately, is the sound coming from? (I know that sounds stupid)

Did you inspect the cam chain guides for wear?

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Well, I thought I had it figured out! It looked like a piece of the shaft was broken off, but it looks like that's normal going by the parts diagram?

balancershaft.jpg

balancershaftcloseup.jpg

The right side bearing came right out. The left one I haven't got out yet. Any tricks? I will be replacing it along with the seal, but I don't to screw anything up. What does that 8mm bolt above it to the left do?

balancershaftbearingleftside.jpg

And finally, does this need to be replaced immediately? I knew it would look like this since I can feel it. Can I wait until it gets really annoying?

clutch.jpg

Oh yeah, and I'm saving the silver plastic for another couple weeks.

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what was the clearance for the de-compression arm?

Where, approximately, is the sound coming from? (I know that sounds stupid)

Did you inspect the cam chain guides for wear?

This is an '07, I don't think I have a decomp "arm".

It's really tough to guess where the noise is coming from exactly.

I didn't look too close at the cam chain guides. They looked fine 25 hours ago when I replaced the topend and cam chain, though.

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Well, I thought I had it figured out! It looked like a piece of the shaft was broken off, but it looks like that's normal going by the parts diagram?

The right side bearing came right out. The left one I haven't got out yet. Any tricks? I will be replacing it along with the seal, but I don't to screw anything up. What does that 8mm bolt above it to the left do?

And finally, does this need to be replaced immediately? I knew it would look like this since I can feel it. Can I wait until it gets really annoying?

Oh yeah, and I'm saving the silver plastic for another couple weeks.

haha yeah, I thought the same thing when I seen that shaft, almost cried until I looked closer and noticed it was "broken" off perfectly, so I figured it was supposed to be like that. I just hope you marked the gears on the right side of the bike for when you put it back together.. even take a picture with a digital camera helps too for when youre putting it back together.

Im not sure what that 8mm bolt is for, I dont think you need to touch it.

to get that bearing out, just hit it from the back with a flathead screwdriver, it should get it out.

also, I should mention about the other bearing. theres 2 tabs holding it in right? well I was dumb and took those 2 8mm bolts that are holding the tabs right in and I dont think that was good... you only need to loosen them a little bit just so you can spin those tabs, stupid me :banana: I dont know if you noticed, but theyre real hard to turn... I should have figured it out!!

no that clutch basket absolutely doesnt need to be replaced. thats not bad at all, mine was 3x worse. I recommend just filing those notches down by hand with a big file. it takes about a half hour, very tedious, but will make your clutch feel much much better, and will give you another 50 or so engine hours out of it. my basket was WAY worse, I filed it down and it made my clutch amazing again, just like new. some people say it makes a bigger gap for the clutch plates to rattle around in more, and they will create more notches there even quicker, some even claim it will only get you 2-3 rides which is not true. it will last a very long time still, around 30-50 engine hours, maybe more. its totally worth the half hour it takes.

while its all apart, you should also rough up the friction plates (the perfectly flat ones with the teeth on the inside of the circle). I just used a circular sander and put them on the floor. are your friction plates black and smooth? I dont think thats "good". I roughed mine up a lot, made them silver again and nice and scratched up with the sandpaper. it felt like a whole new clutch was installed and made the bike feel way more powerful and responsive too. if you do that, you will be wearing away a tiny tiny tiny bit of material/thickness from those friction plates, multiply that by the 8 (or is it 7?) plates and youre going to be maybe .25 - .5mm thinner overall. thats going to require a small adjustment with the clutch cable, but its pretty simple and totally worth it!

then clean the friction plates off perfectly with brake clean, then a rag, then fill your clutch cover half ways full of engine/clutch oil, whatever you use, the 10w40 stuff. and let your friction plates sit in there and soak for a hour or so before you install them. youll be surprised how much better it makes your clutch feel. my clutch used to want to still walk forward when I pulled in the clutch while in gear.. not anymore!

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Thanks for all the help.

So I just push on the bearing and that will push that seal out? I tried that a little but didn't want to break anything. I couldn't find the seal on any parts diagrams. Any ideas?

I'm still uncertain as to what my plan is for Tuesday. I really want to have this ready for a Wed practice day, so I need to come up with a game plan. I need the following at a minimum:

2 bearings and seal from balancer shaft

left crankcase cover gasket

right crankcase cover gasket

Maybe:

cam chain tensioner

cam chain guides

And possibly:

Topend and cam chain (although I only have 30 hours on these and planned on 50-60).

Nothing really felt unusual, so I still don't know what is causing this or what else to look for.

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Thanks for all the help.

So I just push on the bearing and that will push that seal out? I tried that a little but didn't want to break anything. I couldn't find the seal on any parts diagrams. Any ideas?

I'm still uncertain as to what my plan is for Tuesday. I really want to have this ready for a Wed practice day, so I need to come up with a game plan. I need the following at a minimum:

2 bearings and seal from balancer shaft

left crankcase cover gasket

right crankcase cover gasket

Maybe:

cam chain tensioner

cam chain guides

And possibly:

Topend and cam chain (although I only have 30 hours on these and planned on 50-60).

Nothing really felt unusual, so I still don't know what is causing this or what else to look for.

ok first of all.. ive reused my crankcase gaskets with no problems, hell I even ripped them each in 2 spots as I was seperating them with no problems. theyre only paper ones so they WILL re-squish and are reusable, though most people like to change them just in case.

the way I removed that bearing was to just stick a long, flathead screwdriver through the other side, onto the outside race of that bearing, and just tap it out, it should slide right out with the seal, mine did. its ok if you damage that bearing because youre putting in a new one, although theres not much to damage on that one. just dont damage anything else :banana: getting the bearing is easy, but the seal might be a litte more difficult. im too impatient and rammy and usually have a hard time putting new seals in :lol:

I would take off your CCT and check it just to be safe, you might not need a new one.

to change your cam chain guides youre going to have to take the head off, and also buy a new base and head gasket...

you were planning on buying a new top end at the 50-60 hour mark?!? thats quite a low amount of hours IMO, but you must ride it pretty damn hard. have you even shimmed them yet? usually you can shim them twice before a whole new top end is required, but its your call in the end.

its really hard to say exactly what the sound is without being there, and even then im no expert (but like to think I am... lol). maybe Eddie Sisneros will give you a word of advice.. hes a true expert.

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This is an '07, I don't think I have a decomp "arm".

It's really tough to guess where the noise is coming from exactly.

I didn't look too close at the cam chain guides. They looked fine 25 hours ago when I replaced the topend and cam chain, though.

Don't want to be a doushce.... but, how do you have 2,300 posts and not know that your bike has a decompression mechanism? Anyhow, the parts are not labeled for sale on the fish but its parts 5,6, 33 and all the adjacent pieces.

The reason I asked if you checked the de-comp clearance is because if it's too tight it can make some noise at idle.

I also looked at the fish for your balancer shaft. If you look closely (really closely) you can see the irregular shape on the end of the shaft.

Your clutch basket is beat up. It's not so much that the basket is beat up but the dampers behind the basket are toast.

Just to completely rule out the CCT here is a ghetto way to test it (don't think less of me). Take the tensioner off. Start the bike. With the bike idling use something to press against the backside of the cam chain guide to see if the noise disappears/diminishes. Do not rev up the bike with the tensioner removed!

When mine failed I was able to manually extend the "piston" part of the tensioner. I could press against the "piston" and every once in awhile it would fall all the way back into the tensioner. Maybe yours is falling only halfway back or so and still providing enough tension at speed but not at idle. If you haven't already, take a good look at the entire chain to make sure part of a link is not broken or missing.

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Don't want to be a doushce.... but, how do you have 2,300 posts and not know that your bike has a decompression mechanism?

he said decompression arm not mechanism. of course it has a mechanism, but not the arm. I think... ive only seen parts of an 07 engine via pictures.

Anyhow, the parts are not labeled for sale on the fish but its parts 5,6, 33 and all the adjacent pieces.

thats not the decompression... thats the counter balancer weight, washer, and lock nut... what does that have to do with anything? the weight does need to be in the correct spot though, thats why I mentioned earlier to mark it with a sharpie

I also looked at the fish for your balancer shaft. If you look closely (really closely) you can see the irregular shape on the end of the shaft.

which picture? where at? are you talking about that little line on it in the 2nd picture near the part where it looks "broken"

you should put his pic in paint, highlight in red then post it so I/we can see what exactly youre talking about.. :banana:

ps: yes that is a valid way for checking the cam chain guide... its basically the same concept as an actual CCT if you think about it. nothing wrong with that. but what if his bike relies on the CCT? you take it off, and his cam chain is all of a sudden very loose? that might cause problems... maybe catastrophic problems?

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he said decompression arm not mechanism. of course it has a mechanism, but not the arm. I think... ive only seen parts of an 07 engine via pictures.

thats not the decompression... thats the counter balancer weight, washer, and lock nut... what does that have to do with anything? the weight does need to be in the correct spot though, thats why I mentioned earlier to mark it with a sharpie

which picture? where at? are you talking about that little line on it in the 2nd picture near the part where it looks "broken"

you should put his pic in paint, highlight in red then post it so I/we can see what exactly youre talking about.. :banana:

ps: yes that is a valid way for checking the cam chain guide... its basically the same concept as an actual CCT if you think about it. nothing wrong with that. but what if his bike relies on the CCT? you take it off, and his cam chain is all of a sudden very loose? that might cause problems... maybe catastrophic problems?

Good point. I did make a mistake. But my point is not one to be undersold. Measuring the decomp arm gap is simple, free and could be part of the problem. It's part #5 in the fish. (this is the correct link)

Redid the picture from the TT parts fish. Here it is

redo-1.gif

Addendum: Operating your bike without the cam chain tensioner is dangerous. Before starting the bike have a buddy put pressure against the cam guide through the tensioner hole :lol:

Edited by jspicket
hopped up on energy drinks and can't sleep!

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Good point. I did make a mistake. But my point is not one to be undersold. Measuring the decomp arm gap is simple, free and could be part of the problem. It's part #5 in the fish. (this is the correct link)

Redid the picture from the TT parts fish. Here it is

redo-1.gif

Addendum: Operating your bike without the cam chain tensioner is dangerous. Before starting the bike have a buddy put pressure against the cam guide through the tensioner hole :banana:

there ya go, now thats the proper link. youre right, the decomp arm is very easy to measure and doesnt cost a thing, totally worth it to look at. if its set wrong it could cause engine damage though..

and not trying to sound like a dick, but whats your point on that "irregular shaped" balancer shaft? dont you see that its also that way in the micro fiche, hence supposed to be that way? mine was also like that if it means anything, exactly like that. I also thought it was broken but its too perfect to be broken. I dont think theres anything wrong with his shaft but I could be wrong.

I totally agree with you on your addendum, might be a good idea to have a friend help push on it just in case, once you got the bike all back together.

and I was thinking about this as I was falling asleep last night; could that sound be coming from his valves.. maybe something to do with his valve springs??

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By topend I meant piston not valves. Last one I waited until 75 hours, and was going to do it at 50-60 this time. Valves are OEM still in spec never been shimmed so I won't touch them. My bike doesn't have the decomp "arm" and as far as I can tell there is no adjustment or clearance measurement. Just verify that the plunger operates when the weight moves, which it does. I just got that left side bearing and seal and out. There is a large C-clip between the seal and bearing. I'm extremely lucky I didn't crack the case. I'm going to call around for some parts now.

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There is a large C-clip between the seal and bearing.

Ah! youre right, I forgot about that bugger, you can even see it in the picture too! :lol:

you pry the seal out, take the c-clip off, then pound that bearing out :banana:

wish I could help you with the decomp arm but I have no clue how the 07 operates.. and by the sounds of things its a lot more complicated which I dont like. one more reason to keep my 05 I guess..

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