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CRF150RB vs. MOD112cc 2 Stroke Debate


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This just to get some random viewpoints on this. I was going to comment on another post, but I didn't want to hijack it. I've seen a number of posts saying this bike can't keep up with a supermini 2-stroke. So my question to that would be: If Villapoto was on a CRF150rb (stock motor), there is no way he could beat the kids in the supermini class? Since obviously he could, why do people say a 150rb can't hang with a 112cc? Isn't it people trying to blame the bike and not the rider. A better rider can and will beat a slower rider on pretty much anything. This is just my humble opinion watching mini-dads and moms over the years yelling at their kids (and taking all the fun out it) to try to be the next RC. Anyway, I wanted to see what other people had to say.

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This just to get some random viewpoints on this. I was going to comment on another post, but I didn't want to hijack it. I've seen a number of posts saying this bike can't keep up with a supermini 2-stroke. So my question to that would be: If Villapoto was on a CRF150rb (stock motor), there is no way he could beat the kids in the supermini class? Since obviously he could, why do people say a 150rb can't hang with a 112cc? Isn't it people trying to blame the bike and not the rider. A better rider can and will beat a slower rider on pretty much anything. This is just my humble opinion watching mini-dads and moms over the years yelling at their kids (and taking all the fun out it) to try to be the next RC. Anyway, I wanted to see what other people had to say.

You are right that a pro on a CRF150RB might beat a kid on a supermini, but not sure that is a fair comparison. Having Villapoto take a timed lap on the 150R then a timed lap on a 112cc modded supermini might be better comparison. In a random group of top level amaturs you will have some faster on a 150R and some faster on a 112cc, mostly because of the different abilities within that group. It would be interesting to take the same kid rider and time a lap or two on the 150r then a lap or two on the supermini to see if there is any difference with the same rider. I know from experience that the same kid is faster on a 150r than a CR85r as we have both and both are stock, but with the extra power and torque of the 112cc kit and the reduced weight over a 150r, it would be interesting to see.

Good post . . .

Edited by calif-yz400f
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This is my opinion. I believe in a drag race, a 112cc two stroke will be faster than a CRF150r. However, I think some kids would actually turn a faster lap time on a CRF150r than the two stroke Supermini while the higher skilled riders would probably turn faster laps on the Supermini two stroke. One of the magazines recently did a mini comparison of 17/14 inch wheeled 85cc two strokes and the 17/14 CRF. Most of the test riders (varied ages/skill levels) turned faster laps on one of the 85's.

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In my personal experience, a 150r is equal to a stock 85. Hands down the 112 supermini bike will kill the stock 150r.

At a local tracks little mini track, beginners can easily clear everything and the racing comes down to the turns. Riding against a stock yz85, I could enter the turn behind the kid come out at the same time right beside him and my 150r couldn't pull him. We're basically drag racing out of the turn and the only way to get around him was to hold the gas longer. I was on the gas hard and shifted when the bike stopped pulling in that gear, not a skill level issue here. The 150r could not pull the stock 85. I was faster than he was thoughout the entire turn, but when it came to basically bike to bike just holding the gas the bikes seemed equal. There were 2 stock yz85s I experienced this with on the same track and same moto.

This is my opinion. I believe in a drag race, a 112cc two stroke will be faster than a CRF150r. However, I think some kids would actually turn a faster lap time on a CRF150r than the two stroke Supermini while the higher skilled riders would probably turn faster laps on the Supermini two stroke. One of the magazines recently did a mini comparison of 17/14 inch wheeled 85cc two strokes and the 17/14 CRF. Most of the test riders (varied ages/skill levels) turned faster laps on one of the 85's.

I read the article too, I think they did a terrible job with it.

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A stock 150 will on a good day put out about 18.5-19hp on an honest dyno with MUCH more spread than a stock 85 (which also makes about the same peak)

A good true supermini 112 can EASILY put out 28hp and if you really push the reliability and get everything right they are easily over 30.

Best case scenario on a mod 150 is 25ish...and that's very optimistic and not the case in hardly any instances..

Most mod 150's would be lucky to be at 22.

The 112 will have more power bottom to top...not just peak.

Now..from a cost standpoint...112's are not cheap! Especially when pushed hard...the reliability is not great either. However a basic "machinist" 112 that isn't developed well will run a long time...and still make the same power as a 150 modified...

So at the end of the day, the exact same rider on either bike...usually the 112 wins over.

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I own a 150r with a 250f motor. I had the chance to run one of my friends sons supermini 112 ish I think? The supermini was more in the ball park of my 150r, not a stock 150 or stock 85....it was freaking FAAAST. With a skilled rider able to use the motor to its potential (not many riders out there can do it I dont think) The 150r would have NO chance. Like it was said earlier, put villapoto on both bikes and I think it would show which bike is superior (for him mind you....not the rest of us). Thats just not a fair comparison. You seemed to put more emphasis on the rider than the bike (and I agree). If you want to see something scary, watch bubba ride a 110cc pitbike. Thats proof that anything can be fast in capable hands.

Tom

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The odd part to this thread to me is that we're compairing a built 85 to a stock 150, when everyone has said if both are stock they both are equal. So what we need is dyno results on a built 150r, say with a big bore kit and a good port and polish.

also harrperf all the dyno's i've seen for the 150r's have been in the 22 to 24 range, where did you get the 18-19hp at?

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In my personal experience, a 150r is equal to a stock 85. Hands down the 112 supermini bike will kill the stock 150r.

At a local tracks little mini track, beginners can easily clear everything and the racing comes down to the turns. Riding against a stock yz85, I could enter the turn behind the kid come out at the same time right beside him and my 150r couldn't pull him. We're basically drag racing out of the turn and the only way to get around him was to hold the gas longer. I was on the gas hard and shifted when the bike stopped pulling in that gear, not a skill level issue here. The 150r could not pull the stock 85. I was faster than he was thoughout the entire turn, but when it came to basically bike to bike just holding the gas the bikes seemed equal. There were 2 stock yz85s I experienced this with on the same track and same moto.

I read the article too, I think they did a terrible job with it.

I second that...

One of the guys here (can't remember who) did a dyno test on both a 150R and an 85. They were both in the lower 20's and the 85 one or two more horsepower than the 150R. It would stand to reason that a supermini would obliterate the 150R, riding skills being equal.

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So since a typical 450f has 55+hp and a 250f had 37hp, do 450's obliterate 250's? The answer to that by the way is no. Just look at the MXDN when 250's race with 450's. A lot of 250's beat the 450's. Remember Bud's Creek when Villapoto beat everyone on a 250. Just look at the lap times next race you in between 250 and 450 classes. I also do believe in two riders being equal skilled. Someone always gets first and someone always gets second, etc. There are no ties. A faster bike, doesn't make you a faster rider. Like a few posts above about Bubba on a KLX110, he's stupid fast on one. At Starwest he beat everyone (all big bikes) one a 110. Okay that was my $.02 again. Great opinions everyone. 👍

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The odd part to this thread to me is that we're compairing a built 85 to a stock 150, when everyone has said if both are stock they both are equal. So what we need is dyno results on a built 150r, say with a big bore kit and a good port and polish.

also harrperf all the dyno's i've seen for the 150r's have been in the 22 to 24 range, where did you get the 18-19hp at?

the reason there comparing a stock 150r to a 112 supermini is because you can't run a 150r with a big bore kit in the supermini class. so your limited on engine upgrades for the 150r. i agree that harperfs dyno numbers for the 150r do seem low, most stock 150rs can run about 23hp at the crank.

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power to the wheels is all that matters...and a lot of dyno's are inflated hugely.

On an honest dyno, a stock 150 is about 19, same with stock 85.

On an honest dyno a good fairly reliable 112 is 27-28...with room to be above 30.

A mod 150 is about 22 for "most builds" and if everything is right..and it's a time bomb in many cases...25 can be achieved.

Perfect example this year.

At the lake whitney am national, red bull Joe Gibs Racing rider cooper webb on his 150 holeshot every 85 class moto by a mile.

In his super mini moto's he was no where near the front against the 112's (and often 103's...)

His 150 was without a doubt be fastest I have ever seen and truly sounded ridiculous.

It's just not within the "laws" of physics to make a 150 compete against a 112...in the power department at least.

IMHO most 250f's are stock in the 35.5-36 hp range on a good bike and 450's are just about 50-51 nowadays. That is the scale/calibration I am presenting in my posts.

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Can a 105-112's 27hp be manipulated to have a similar power delivery as the 150R? I do all trail riding. Mostly in tight technical trails. I came off of a KX100 and I loved the power and "lugability" of the 150r. Can a supermini be made to preform this way reliably or is the 150r still the best choice?

Thanks

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Can a 105-112's 27hp be manipulated to have a similar power delivery as the 150R? I do all trail riding. Mostly in tight technical trails. I came off of a KX100 and I loved the power and "lugability" of the 150r. Can a supermini be made to preform this way reliably or is the 150r still the best choice?

Thanks

Hmm, I wonder how the power delivery of a stock CRF150r would compare to a stock KX100 with a flywheel weight.

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Perfect example this year.

At the lake whitney am national, red bull Joe Gibs Racing rider cooper webb on his 150 holeshot every 85 class moto by a mile.

In his super mini moto's he was no where near the front against the 112's (and often 103's...)

His 150 was without a doubt be fastest I have ever seen and truly sounded ridiculous.

Cooper won the 85 14-15 mod at Lake Whitney, but I'm pretty sure he was riding a mod 85 as AMA rules don't permit the 150 in any of the 85 classes. He was second in the Supermini 2 on a 150 and 6th in Supermini 1. Obviously, with the right kid on it, a 150 can beat all but one of the best 112s.

At Oak Hill, where the 150 is legal in the 14-15 85 classes, Cooper won both the stock and mod on his 150. He was also 3rd in Supermini. Not sure what his starts were like but he was in the top 5 at the end of lap one and led the first lap of his heat.

What does all of this mean? That with the right rider, a 150 can be competitive with the 112s. I believe the 112s have an advantage over a 150, but I also believe a 150 has an advantage over an 85.

I have pushed the limit of 105 for Supermini 2 strokes to make it a bit more even with the 150 and to make it a little more economical to compete in the class. The best 112 costs nearly double what a good 105 does.

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the reason there comparing a stock 150r to a 112 supermini is because you can't run a 150r with a big bore kit in the supermini class. so your limited on engine upgrades for the 150r. i agree that harperfs dyno numbers for the 150r do seem low, most stock 150rs can run about 23hp at the crank.

Awesome, thanks for the info, didn't know that about the built 150's. Kinda dumb, hey everyone you can build up this bike but not it's four stroke equal... 👍

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  • 2 months later...

theres no stock 150r that will hang with a modded 85 ive raced 105s 112s everything and it was all i could do to stay behind them within 3-4 secs in a race and i could roll on my old 150 stock 85 and stock 150 is the best not stock mod thats not fair on any circumstance but what size bikes are? And yes a rider has alot to do with it but everyone who watched my races not just family knew i was a better rider than those guys but the power of the bikes wasnt comparable

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If you're a better rider you will beat them period, no excuses. 150's beat 85's and 105's in supermoto all the time. Look at the top three times of the nationals 250's vs. 450's. The are all within a second. Even Alessi on a 350cc can hang with the 450's. (when he's not crashing) It's 80% rider and 20% bike.

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