4 stroke must die !

[lowmass]

First let me make clear that although I grew up on 2 strokes I could care less what technology I ride. I need, yes I said need, the best bike my small wallet can afford.I believe I speak for the vast magority on this one. I have raced moto for years and have seen both sides of this 2 vs 4 thing. I come at you, the average Joe racer , rider, with years of experience and an engineers background. Again I make clear I have absolutly no care wich type I ride. I only want to be able to aford it and have as much fun as possable. 30 yrs of experience has clearly shown that the very high perf 4 stroke is NOT the answer to this equation!!!! Compared to the well built 2 stroke the 4 is high maintinance and when she goes bang is multiplied more money and time to fix. Time and money, I like most have limited. I confidently predict that this truth will accomplish one of two things. Eather the pits will be filled only with the rich continuing to pour money and time into their bikes. Or the cry of the masses will force the maunfactures to return to building the beautifully efficiant and less expensive 2 stroke again.

The debate of 4 stroke better than 2 or visa versa is point less. Both motors can be designed to produce competitive power. Only the poorly designed rule book holds this back with the present technologies. Just imagine what would happen if the manufactures got serious about new technology and 2 strokes. Well I assure you they have. In fact the promiss of 2 stroke supremicy is much more likley than most of us know. I assure you there is no reasion the perf of 2 strokes should not beat out the 4 in nearly every way. It really is quite simple. Direct injection, oil injection,heavyer cranks, and high perf ignitions, will catipult this low weight, simple motor into the place it deserves to be and you will run an entire seasion of racing on nothing more than a top end rebuild of piston and rings. Maybe 150 dollars. And if you do have a catistrofic failure it will be under 500 dollars. The manufacture kno this!! Shame.

I have raced a crf450 for the last two yrs. I change the oil (maxima) way more than need to. I keep the valves adjusted well within spec. Wich btw needed to be done way too much imo. I had to replace the intake valves 2 times each season due to wear. The piston twice each sesion. This maintinance schedual was to avoid the mind blowing price of what happens when a 4 stroke has a real failure.Well guess what, dispite all this attention I lost a cam chain tensioner spring. A loose cam chain resulted in taking everything out! And I was only in 1st gear riding slow whan it happened. The cases survived but thats about all. If I was on the gas they too would likley have been distroyed. This "rebuild" cost 1700.00$ !!! The last time i did this much rebuild on my 2 stroke cr250 it was about 500.00. You do the math. I now have no money to finish the racing seasion. BTW that time I had to rebuild the cr250 2 stroke, it had been ridden hard for two complet race seasions with nothing more than a piston and rings! If I changed them when I should have it wouldnt happen. CHEAP!!!! and 4 times less time than a 4 rebuild!!

There is very good news. The 2 stroke is getting the attention it should by a small few manufactures. with the new lube and fuel dilivery methods, it easy beats the 4 stroke just like it did back in the 60s. Its up to us, the consumer to voice what we want and give the bean counters a reasion to do what the engineers want to do, give us a high perf motor thats as reliable and low maintinance as it can be. The 2 stroke will make a come back. Thank God.

I leave you with a VERY interesting link. Take the time to read this thing and you will get a good view of whats possable.

Make some noise people.

http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/2-stroke-vs-4-stroke.html

[Slims85]

I believe 4 strokes shouldn't be the alpha male of dirt bikes just because AMA rules say so..

Now a lot of us here prefer 2 strokes over 4 strokes and vice versa...

Now to stop a riot between the two groups, next if it is this biased post it in the manufactures 2 stroke forums (yamaha 2 stroke etc...)

Not trolling on you like I stated i prefer 2t over 4t.. But some people also have their say on this matter and brings out the worst...

?

[rideandshoot]

i like both but i ride a 4 stroke. i really think two strokes will be on the botttom untill the big 4(yamaha honda exc..) put some more money into the two stroke line up. fuel injected two strokes are not new, do we have them on bikes yet? nope just my $.2

[Bucket69]

"I have raced a crf450 for the last two yrs."

If the 2t is so much more superior, why are you running a 4t?

BTW...I prefer to ride a 2t as well.

[koryboy8]

The demise of the 2-stroke was due to the ever increasing emissions regulations than anything else. I don't think they even sell 2-cycle weed eaters in California. If technology can make a 2-stroke a little cleaner, maybe we will see them make a comeback.

[gettintall]

well the makers of our toys make alot more money off building 4 storkes than they do 2t,and its because of the price to fix what fails,the makers of toys do not make the majority of there profits off the initial purchase of the machine,its what you buy after wards that makes the shareholders smile,you always hear about the green thing but mercury makes a 2t outboard that is way cleaner on emission than 4t bikes,you know detroit diesels are 2t and have loads of torque,and are very green with bio tech fuel,a 2t fuel injected diesel dirtbike?who knows , maybee

[Slims85]

warned you ! ?

2t's aren't much more of a pollutant than anything else with a motor ! They haven't shunned cars, and many more people own those than 2t's

[Stu2]

well the makers of our toys make alot more money off building 4 storkes than they do 2t,and its because of the price to fix what fails,the makers of toys do not make the majority of there profits off the initial purchase of the machine,its what you buy after wards that makes the shareholders smile,you always hear about the green thing but mercury makes a 2t outboard that is way cleaner on emission than 4t bikes,you know detroit diesels are 2t and have loads of torque,and are very green with bio tech fuel,a 2t fuel injected diesel dirtbike?who knows , maybee

Bingo, that right there is the reason, dont buy into the emmission BS, all it took was a couple of million dollars into the right politicians campaign coffers and presto, new emmission laws and the Manufacturers make way more money than off to strokes. All major companies are run and controlled by accountants, they dont care how much you like the bike, or how cheap it is to run, they care about the bottom line

It comes down to money, pure and simple

[yama722]

Everyone knows that the 2 stroke is better in every catagory, cost, power, ect, ect., but a lot of people still prefer the 4 stroke for one reason, and that is it is easier to ride. This is why I ride a 4 stroke, I think thats what it comes down too.

[KcDavis]

The demise of the 2-stroke was due to the ever increasing emissions regulations than anything else. I don't think they even sell 2-cycle weed eaters in California. If technology can make a 2-stroke a little cleaner, maybe we will see them make a comeback.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. You can go straight to the EPA website and know you are just shooting from the hip. Environmentalists, tree huggers, and the EPA have no say over closed course vehicles. This includes all 2 strokes which are manufactured and sold as closed course vehicles. KTM has quit putting spark arrestors on their bikes from the factory so they get the closed course designation rather than 'off road'. IF, the EPA had anything to do with it, why would KTM produce so many 2 strokes and sell them in the US? KTM's 2 stroke sales make up 40% of their bike sales. I would say emissions isn't holding them back.

I suggest you do a tad more research before you go somewhere telling people why things are the way they are when you don't even know yourself. ?

Here you go: http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P1002K3G.TXT?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2000+Thru+2005&Docs=&Query=420F02045%20or%20EPA%20or%20closed%20or%20course%20or%20vehicle&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=pubnumber^%22420F02045%22&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=pubnumber&IntQFieldOp=1&ExtQFieldOp=1&XmlQuery=&File=D:\zyfiles\Index%20Data\00thru05\Txt\00000017\P1002K3G.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h|-&MaximumDocuments=10&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=p|f&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x

[onefasthonda]

I don't know if 2t will every come back until honda or some other big company comes out with one and then the others will start to follow but I do agree that I like a 2t better then a 4t I would love to see a 2t come back. Also they need to work on the pollution I know that sounds stupid but that plays a big role why they have not even consider bringing them back yet.

[Slims85]

I agree with KcDavis, the emissions is just a bunch of BS that politicians used to get some extra change..

[KcDavis]

Here you go: http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P1002K3G.TXT?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2000+Thru+2005&Docs=&Query=420F02045%20or%20EPA%20or%20closed%20or%20course%20or%20vehicle&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=pubnumber^%22420F02045%22&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=pubnumber&IntQFieldOp=1&ExtQFieldOp=1&XmlQuery=&File=D:\zyfiles\Index%20Data\00thru05\Txt\00000017\P1002K3G.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h|-&MaximumDocuments=10&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=p|f&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x

I don't know if 2t will every come back until honda or some other big company comes out with one and then the others will start to follow but I do agree that I like a 2t better then a 4t I would love to see a 2t come back. Also they need to work on the pollution I know that sounds stupid but that plays a big role why they have not even consider bringing them back yet.

Feel free to read the link above, you are wrong about why 3 of the big 4 don't make 2 strokes.

I agree with KcDavis, the emissions is just a bunch of BS that politicians used to get some extra change..

I think you misunderstood what I said. It has nothing to do with emissions or politics. If it was, you would think no manufacturer would sell 2 strokes in the US. It is purely revenue that the manufacturers make off of service and parts for the thumpers....

[downonmonday]

Conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!

[downonmonday]

Actually I have both, so....I'm just a little bias on both.

[TSmithCR250R]

Motocross Action Magazine says ... "Let's cut through the effluvia! Rule changes made the four-stroke what it is today. It didn't get there by virtue of its power per cubic centimeter, power per pound or power per dollar. Nope! Without the AMA four-stroke exemption rule of 1998, the modern four-stroke would still be defined by the Honda XR600. Forget about EPA rules (they don’t affect closed-course racing machines), fleet fuel averages (they don’t apply to offroad bikes), cost savings (four-strokes cost more to produce) or any of the other hokey reasons that the nattering nabobs of negativity credit the rise of the four-stroke on. None of those things are players. Engine for engine, cc for cc, ounce for ounce, the two-stroke motocross engine is a vastly superior piece of equipment. If the two-stroke was invented today, it would sweep the four-stroke motocross engine off the face of the earth (which is exactly what it did 43 years ago—when the displacement rules were equal). The only way a four-stroke can compete with a two-stroke is if the displacement is larger. The AMA four-stroke rule change was the impetus for the switch (followed by significant bike sales for the 1998 Yamaha YZ400--which led every other manufacturer to jump into building four-stroke motocross bikes).

No four-stroke displacement rule, no four-stroke motocross sales. No sales, no four-strokes."

[picapacapopo]

30 yrs of experience...maintinance...Eather...maunfactures...efficiant...promiss...supremicy...likley...reasion...heavyer...catipult...seasion...catistrofic...kno...

OK ONE, if you've got "30 years of experience", then how in the world do you still spell like that...?

Then on top of that, have you NOT seen the thread that compares two stroke and four stroke maintenance? The four stroke costs...wait for it..wait for it...$1 more to maintain. And that's WITH extremely preventative maintenance.

[KcDavis]

Motocross Action Magazine says ... "Let's cut through the effluvia! Rule changes made the four-stroke what it is today. It didn't get there by virtue of its power per cubic centimeter, power per pound or power per dollar. Nope! Without the AMA four-stroke exemption rule of 1998, the modern four-stroke would still be defined by the Honda XR600. Forget about EPA rules (they don’t affect closed-course racing machines), fleet fuel averages (they don’t apply to offroad bikes), cost savings (four-strokes cost more to produce) or any of the other hokey reasons that the nattering nabobs of negativity credit the rise of the four-stroke on. None of those things are players. Engine for engine, cc for cc, ounce for ounce, the two-stroke motocross engine is a vastly superior piece of equipment. If the two-stroke was invented today, it would sweep the four-stroke motocross engine off the face of the earth (which is exactly what it did 43 years ago—when the displacement rules were equal). The only way a four-stroke can compete with a two-stroke is if the displacement is larger. The AMA four-stroke rule change was the impetus for the switch (followed by significant bike sales for the 1998 Yamaha YZ400--which led every other manufacturer to jump into building four-stroke motocross bikes).

No four-stroke displacement rule, no four-stroke motocross sales. No sales, no four-strokes."

Good Post!!

Also, makes you wonder when you will start seeing more 2t's than 4t's on the amateur level, since most places now allow equal displacement!

[hellyhans]

First let me make clear that although I grew up on 2 strokes I could care less what technology I ride. I need, yes I said need, the best bike my small wallet can afford.I believe I speak for the vast magority on this one. I have raced moto for years and have seen both sides of this 2 vs 4 thing. I come at you, the average Joe racer , rider, with years of experience and an engineers background. Again I make clear I have absolutly no care wich type I ride. I only want to be able to aford it and have as much fun as possable. 30 yrs of experience has clearly shown that the very high perf 4 stroke is NOT the answer to this equation!!!! Compared to the well built 2 stroke the 4 is high maintinance and when she goes bang is multiplied more money and time to fix. Time and money, I like most have limited. I confidently predict that this truth will accomplish one of two things. Eather the pits will be filled only with the rich continuing to pour money and time into their bikes. Or the cry of the masses will force the maunfactures to return to building the beautifully efficiant and less expensive 2 stroke again.

The debate of 4 stroke better than 2 or visa versa is point less. Both motors can be designed to produce competitive power. Only the poorly designed rule book holds this back with the present technologies. Just imagine what would happen if the manufactures got serious about new technology and 2 strokes. Well I assure you they have. In fact the promiss of 2 stroke supremicy is much more likley than most of us know. I assure you there is no reasion the perf of 2 strokes should not beat out the 4 in nearly every way. It really is quite simple. Direct injection, oil injection,heavyer cranks, and high perf ignitions, will catipult this low weight, simple motor into the place it deserves to be and you will run an entire seasion of racing on nothing more than a top end rebuild of piston and rings. Maybe 150 dollars. And if you do have a catistrofic failure it will be under 500 dollars. The manufacture kno this!! Shame.

I have raced a crf450 for the last two yrs. I change the oil (maxima) way more than need to. I keep the valves adjusted well within spec. Wich btw needed to be done way too much imo. I had to replace the intake valves 2 times each season due to wear. The piston twice each sesion. This maintinance schedual was to avoid the mind blowing price of what happens when a 4 stroke has a real failure.Well guess what, dispite all this attention I lost a cam chain tensioner spring. A loose cam chain resulted in taking everything out! And I was only in 1st gear riding slow whan it happened. The cases survived but thats about all. If I was on the gas they too would likley have been distroyed. This "rebuild" cost 1700.00$ !!! The last time i did this much rebuild on my 2 stroke cr250 it was about 500.00. You do the math. I now have no money to finish the racing seasion. BTW that time I had to rebuild the cr250 2 stroke, it had been ridden hard for two complet race seasions with nothing more than a piston and rings! If I changed them when I should have it wouldnt happen. CHEAP!!!! and 4 times less time than a 4 rebuild!!

There is very good news. The 2 stroke is getting the attention it should by a small few manufactures. with the new lube and fuel dilivery methods, it easy beats the 4 stroke just like it did back in the 60s. Its up to us, the consumer to voice what we want and give the bean counters a reasion to do what the engineers want to do, give us a high perf motor thats as reliable and low maintinance as it can be. The 2 stroke will make a come back. Thank God.

I leave you with a VERY interesting link. Take the time to read this thing and you will get a good view of whats possable.

Make some noise people.

http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/2-stroke-vs-4-stroke.html

I think you don't know how to clean a filter for your life with your 30 years experience..

I like to 2t, but would not trade my reliable! 4t.. look at all the touring bikes.. adventure bikes.. they are all pretty much 4t... made to last and reliable for long journeys.. XR, BMW GS, KTM adventures.. not one in there are 2t and they are the most reliable bikes ever made.

It all comes down to how the bike is "maintained" by the user, if its abused or not... has nothing to do with one better than the other...

[tech24]

interesting post, im a 4t fan but only because thats what I've grown up riding. I'd really like to see some others chime in with their seasonal repair bills. I don't race or ride red but I do beat the crap out of all my stuff and haven't really put a cent into anything but minor stuff. I just wonder if this is everyones experience, major seasonal repair bills that is?