'90 Beta Zero or '04 Sherpa 250?

[andrzej]

Sounds like its sorted out. Put a 06 clutch spring in (belville washer) and you'll be all set.

What does the '06 spring do for the clutch feel/performance? I presume this is an easy mod to make?

I too am interested in this KS bushing fix. Not sure about that one - but you never know. maybe he's onto something great.!

I'll see what I can find out about the details of this.

Get a slow throttle if it doesnt have one.

Slow throttle? You mean like a G2 Ergo throttle tamer? I have one of those on my YZ250.

Enjoy! ?

I plan to!

[laser17]

What does the '06 spring do for the clutch feel/performance? I presume this is an easy mod to make?

Its a softer spring - clutch becomes alot easier to pull and improves the feel. Help reduce hand fatigue. Highly recommended. About $20.

I'll see what I can find out about the details of this.

Slow throttle? You mean like a G2 Ergo throttle tamer? I have one of those on my YZ250.

No - just like the white tube domino thats probably on the bike now - except the hand grip tube will be black and the cable pulley has a slightly smaller cam to give you more throttle "resolution" and slow things down a bit. After you get a good feel for the bike, you can change back to a white tube if you like. ( most novice riders do far better with a black tube)

I plan to!

?

[andrzej]

Its a softer spring - clutch becomes alot easier to pull and improves the feel. Help reduce hand fatigue. Highly recommended. About $20.

I've never had a problem with firm clutch pull (my Harleys have a way stiffer clutch than the dirt bikes, and in stop/go traffice, it's never bothered me), so I may not need this. Better feel would be good though. Does it really make that much difference with a hydraulic clutch mechanism?

No - just like the white tube domino thats probably on the bike now - except the hand grip tube will be black and the cable pulley has a slightly smaller cam to give you more throttle "resolution" and slow things down a bit. After you get a good feel for the bike, you can change back to a white tube if you like. ( most novice riders do far better with a black tube)

Is this a stock GasGas part? Part number? Or do I buy it aftermarket elsewhere? Sounds like a G2 with the right cam could do something similar, though probably at a much higher price. Thx!

One thing that is interesting is that in my searching for local GG dealers to source parts from (want a new rear fender to repace the cracked/riveted one that's on the bike right now), I got a response from one guy who stopped carrying GG's back in '07 due to reliability issues. When I asked him for details, this is what he said:

The shift mechanism is fragile. Many times a good hit on the shifter will result in a requirement to split the cases to repair the shift linkage. There are also clutch release issues that have been resolved. Bikes after 2004 had a much improved clutch. After 2005 when they changed the master cylinder, clutch case and clutch mechanism the clutch action became much more reliable. Beta and Sherco are the most reliable in my opinion. Montesa are also reliable but a bit harder to get. The new Ossa is too new to determine if it has any design issues.

Interesting....sounds like it mirrors your and 2Ply's comments and inquiries about the shifter.

[2PLY]

I've never had a problem with firm clutch pull (my Harleys have a way stiffer clutch than the dirt bikes, and in stop/go traffice, it's never bothered me), so I may not need this. Better feel would be good though. Does it really make that much difference with a hydraulic clutch mechanism?..........

...... I got a response from one guy who stopped carrying GG's back in '07 due to reliability issues. When I asked him for details, this is what he said:

....

Keep in mind that Trials Manufacturers are very small companies and do not make the next year's models in bulk, so they are able to make changes and corrections during the production year.

These companies are constantly evolving their machines, so a 2004 model that was the top machine is now a "Dog" compared to the new stuff It's not that the older bikes were "Bad", it's just along the way, they found things to improve as the factory riders constantly looked for things that would make their bike better.

And the nature of the Trials Event format is constantly changing to challenge the riders as the riders create bikes that tame the sections, the sections change and so the bikes change and then the sections and on and on it goes.

I haven't had any shifter problems in any of the 4 Pro Model GG bikes I've owned. I am aware that there are parts in there that are designed to break or bend BEFORE more important parts can break. I HAVE had some kick starter gear problems on three of the 4 bikes. However, I have learned to recognize the signs that indicate when it's OK to kick or not and have adjusted my starting style. And when those symptoms first appear, I know that the Starter Idler gear is chipped or buggered up and will need replacing soon..... BEFORE it breaks the pawl gear!!

Also, on the clutch issue, the softer and more progressive clutch is for a progressive slipping action. In competition, we are frequently at a stand still with the need to softly creep ahead. The soft clutch is not for making a full shift as much as it is for precise below idle speed progress in competition. ?

[laser17]

For the record - My primary issue with the 02 is that it was a revolutionary new design. With ANY complex and expensive product, I prefer to be the 2nd man through the door so to speak when dealing with brand new/unproven technology. That said - All the fixes for the known 02 issues were back retrofit able and are readily available in the US. By 03, most of all these issues were fixed on the production bikes.

In its time - the 02 GG was really cutting edge. 20 lbs lighter and more powerful / better handling than anything else at that time. Its still a very capable bike - more capable than most clubman level riders. Still - the new ones are WAY more refined in every way IMO.

Look for a clean, well maintained bike ridden by a Sr. Novice. Any brand that fits the bill is fine as long as its the 2nd year after a large design change. (even the almighty honda based 4rt had issues when 1st released)

[andrzej]

Keep in mind that Trials Manufacturers are very small companies and do not make the next year's models in bulk, so they are able to make changes and corrections during the production year.

These companies are constantly evolving their machines, so a 2004 model that was the top machine is now a "Dog" compared to the new stuff It's not that the older bikes were "Bad", it's just along the way, they found things to improve as the factory riders constantly looked for things that would make their bike better.

And the nature of the Trials Event format is constantly changing to challenge the riders as the riders create bikes that tame the sections, the sections change and so the bikes change and then the sections and on and on it goes.

Like when the big Japanese companies decided that 4-stroke bikes were "better" than 2-strokes? I have read some comments where some riders loved the '02 and preferred it to even the latest 2011 GasGas Pro!

Regardless, the bike is in decent shape, and never having ridden a trials bike, I expect I'll have a blast with it. My "challenge" is to learn how to ride a trials bike, boost my overall dirt skills and have lots of fun doing so!

I haven't had any shifter problems in any of the 4 Pro Model GG bikes I've owned. I am aware that there are parts in there that are designed to break or bend BEFORE more important parts can break. I HAVE had some kick starter gear problems on three of the 4 bikes. However, I have learned to recognize the signs that indicate when it's OK to kick or not and have adjusted my starting style. And when those symptoms first appear, I know that the Starter Idler gear is chipped or buggered up and will need replacing soon..... BEFORE it breaks the pawl gear!!

I think all bikes have problems of some sort or another....there's no such thing as a perfect bike. Well....maybe Tron Light Cycle, but those are not going to be available in a trials configuration for 40-50 years, or so I hear.

Also, on the clutch issue, the softer and more progressive clutch is for a progressive slipping action. In competition, we are frequently at a stand still with the need to softly creep ahead. The soft clutch is not for making a full shift as much as it is for precise below idle speed progress in competition. ?

I don't think I'm gonna be competitive for some time, so it's probably not gonna be an issue for a newbie like me.

For the record - My primary issue with the 02 is that it was a revolutionary new design. With ANY complex and expensive product, I prefer to be the 2nd man through the door so to speak when dealing with brand new/unproven technology. That said - All the fixes for the known 02 issues were back retrofit able and are readily available in the US. By 03, most of all these issues were fixed on the production bikes.

From what I gather, it was possible to fix the 02 issues, and if you find a bike where that has been done, it's a decent buy. Regardless....it's now mine and I'm happy with the purchase.

In its time - the 02 GG was really cutting edge. 20 lbs lighter and more powerful / better handling than anything else at that time. Its still a very capable bike - more capable than most clubman level riders. Still - the new ones are WAY more refined in every way IMO.

Some folks disagree with you on that and like the '02 better. See my comments to 2Ply above for more thoughts on that.

And regardless, I'm not in a position to drop $8K on a new toy, so best I can do is to buy a reasonably priced used bike that fits my budget and is in decent shape. Not to mention having to keep the wife happy! I've got it good that she doesn't mind me having 8 bikes parked in the garage (one is hers though...an '05 Road King). But a divorce would add too much to the cost of a new bike! ?

Look for a clean, well maintained bike ridden by a Sr. Novice. Any brand that fits the bill is fine as long as its the 2nd year after a large design change. (even the almighty honda based 4rt had issues when 1st released)

Except for the 2nd year part, the '02 GG Pro I picked up fits that description.

I've drained the gas (old) and cleaned the carb and jets. Still have to clean/oil the air filter and replace the bottom end oil (ATF fluid....who woulda guessed! That's a first for me). And today I pulled off the old grips (look original, and both ends ripped off...still usable, but ratty) and installed some nice new red/black Scott grips to match the bike colour. Somehow wrenching on a bike and doing some small customization, even just new grips, makes a new-to-you bike feel more like "it's my baby now!". Very satisfying.

I have a new baby in the garage! I'm a happy camper!

Edited May 5, 2011 by andrzej

[andrzej]

Here's some pics of the '02 GasGas TXT Pro that I purchased, in case y'all are interested.....

yeah....I know....I'm already looking into ordering a new rear fender. Though I'll leave the riveted one on for a while so as not to break a new one while making beginner mistakes! ?

[andrzej]

I do have two questions about my '02 GasGas Pro though

1) I noticed that the rear tire has rubbed through the side of the muffler a bit. Is there anything I can do to adjust the muffler position to avoid this? I just put some metal tape over it for now. Didn't seem to be adjustable. And I really have to jump on the bike HARD to get the rear rubber close to the muffler. Maybe just a bit more shock preload?

2) The kickstand is attached to the swingarm, which is weird, but interesting. Problem is, on a hard, level surface, the stand is just a tad too long and the bike is too vertical and tends to go over the other way. Is there any easy way to adjust the effective length of the kickstand? Since it's on the swingarm, shock adjustment won't affect the height.

Thanks!

[2PLY]

I do have two questions about my '02 GasGas Pro though

1) I noticed that the rear tire has rubbed through the side of the muffler a bit. Is there anything I can do to adjust the muffler position to avoid this? I just put some metal tape over it for now. Didn't seem to be adjustable. And I really have to jump on the bike HARD to get the rear rubber close to the muffler. Maybe just a bit more shock preload?

2) The kickstand is attached to the swingarm, which is weird, but interesting. Problem is, on a hard, level surface, the stand is just a tad too long and the bike is too vertical and tends to go over the other way. Is there any easy way to adjust the effective length of the kickstand? Since it's on the swingarm, shock adjustment won't affect the height.

Thanks!

Don't get us wrong, we were NOT telling you NOT to buy the bike. We were just letting you know some of the issues, fixes and differences. Some people might walk into one that has all of the bad issues and not have any idea and then blame us for NOT warning them.

You were warned, checked into it and found the bike has been serviced and upgraded correctly.. for that, congratulations! Really!

The rubbing of the muffler is very common. One fix that I apply is to add a relatively thick washer between the muffler attachment and the top rear shock mount. It can only accept a very small spacer or the bolt will not fit through the holes due to a slight mis-alignment from the spacer. A slight adjustment there is multiplied at the tire. Also make sure the other tabs are not bent in.

I believe over time that the kick stand mount gets bent in a little and makes the bike stand more upright until it stands too tall. Look where the kick stand connects to the swing arm and see if you can bend anything there.

For proper rear suspension adjustment, the rear shock should sink at about 1/3 or slightly more into it's travel with just your weight on the bike... Then, you jump up and down on the pegs to see if you can bottom the suspension. It should NOT be easy but you SHOULD be able to bottom it on your most vigorous jumps while the bike is standing on flat ground... Adjust the pre-load of the rear spring accordingly. There is more, but enough typing for now.. go have fun.. ?

[andrzej]

Don't get us wrong, we were NOT telling you NOT to buy the bike. We were just letting you know some of the issues, fixes and differences. Some people might walk into one that has all of the bad issues and not have any idea and then blame us for NOT warning them.

You were warned, checked into it and found the bike has been serviced and upgraded correctly.. for that, congratulations! Really!

No worries, 2Ply....or as my Aussie friends from Down Under say, No Wucking Forries!

I did not take anyone's comments amiss....in fact, I was/am very appreciative of all the advice and advanced notice of what to look for and what were common issues with that year/make/model of bike. Was just chatting is all!

The rubbing of the muffler is very common. One fix that I apply is to add a relatively thick washer between the muffler attachment and the top rear shock mount. It can only accept a very small spacer or the bolt will not fit through the holes due to a slight mis-alignment from the spacer. A slight adjustment there is multiplied at the tire. Also make sure the other tabs are not bent in.!

I was wondering if using some washers/spacers might do the trick. I'll defintely give that a try!

I believe over time that the kick stand mount gets bent in a little and makes the bike stand more upright until it stands too tall. Look where the kick stand connects to the swing arm and see if you can bend anything there.

Ah! Now why didn't I think of that? Doh! (hitting forehead) Makes a lot of sense. I'll check into that tomorrow when I resume work on the bike.

For proper rear suspension adjustment, the rear shock should sink at about 1/3 or slightly more into it's travel with just your weight on the bike... Then, you jump up and down on the pegs to see if you can bottom the suspension. It should NOT be easy but you SHOULD be able to bottom it on your most vigorous jumps while the bike is standing on flat ground... Adjust the pre-load of the rear spring accordingly.

That should let me adjust the shock appropriately. I think I've got a few pounds on the prior owner, so it might need a tad more preload.

Thanks for all the tips, 2Ply! Especially on such short notice, since I want to get the bike buttoned back up and play with it tomorrow sometime! Air filter is drying on my counter....so a bit of oiling, a quick tranny fluid change and I should be good to go!

There is more, but enough typing for now.. go have fun.. ?

Muchos gracias! I am happy to play "Grasshoppa" to your "Yoda of Trials" and really appreciate the benefit of your experience and the trouble you've taken to help me out. Same to everyone else who has offered advice! Hope you had a good StarWars day uesterday (May the Fourth be with you! LOL )

I have a new teeter totter to play with too....and some rail ties....and some logs to fix down with rebar....and some pine stand zigzag to mark with trail tape! The county forests officially open for trail riding this Saturday (finally....long, cold, wet spring delayed the opening day by 3 weeks).

Am I gonna have fun? Heck ya!

[laser17]

Your new bike looks very nice in the pictures. ? The cracked rear fenders are normal and the major pieces like the silencer and frame look really clean. Nice! Im sure you will have a blast on it - they are very fun to ride.

Also - change the tranny oil at regular intervals. (about 375-400cc) window should show NO MORE than 3/4 full. The main bearings on this bike are lubed via the tranny fluid (a feature that lets the bike run very lean mixtures - like 100:1 with good synthetic oil) and is therefore a good idea to keep clean. (Not another "issue" - just a good practice).

[andrzej]

Your new bike looks very nice in the pictures. ? The cracked rear fenders are normal and the major pieces like the silencer and frame look really clean. Nice! Im sure you will have a blast on it - they are very fun to ride.

Thanks Laser17....I'm looking forward to it! In fact, gonna finish up some things this aft and take 'er for a buzz around my property!

Also - change the tranny oil at regular intervals. (about 375-400cc) window should show NO MORE than 3/4 full. The main bearings on this bike are lubed via the tranny fluid (a feature that lets the bike run very lean mixtures - like 100:1 with good synthetic oil) and is therefore a good idea to keep clean. (Not another "issue" - just a good practice).

I tend to be pretty good about changing fluids/cleaning filters regularly. Am dropping the tranny oil this aft, since I don't know how old the stuff in there is. Best to start fresh.

How often is "regular intervals"? I guess that will depend on how much I ride it.

As for 375-400cc, the manual/specs say 550cc of ATF for the '02 GG Pro.

Off to go play with the bike and set up some more obstacle course stuff.

[laser17]

The manual is wrong. ? thats why I mentioned it. A fresh fill will take 400cc.

I change my oil every 10 to 20 hrs depending on how wet things are. Usually on the 20 hr side or every 5-6 rides.

Many threads on here about it.

Enjoy:thumbsup:

[andrzej]

The manual is wrong. ? thats why I mentioned it. A fresh fill will take 400cc.

Damn....I put in 550 per the manual. I noticed the clutch starting to slip with the bit of playing I did this afternoon.

Would that be a symptom of putting in too much ATF? I used a Dextron II/III compatible ATF fluid. Non-synth.

Sounds like I need to drain some out before I take it out again.

Is there a specific spot on the sight window that it should come to? Mine is full past the window with the 550 in it.....nevermind....I just re-read an earlier post of yours that said don't go more than 3/4 up the sight window....I'll drain some and get it to 1/2 to 3/4 up the window and see if that resolves the clutch slippage issue.

I change my oil every 10 to 20 hrs depending on how wet things are. Usually on the 20 hr side or every 5-6 rides.

Many threads on here about it.

Enjoy:thumbsup:

Thanks for the tips!

[laser17]

The extra fluid equates to clutch drag in my experience. I dont "think" it would add to slip. ATF-F will be "grabbier". (not sure thats a word - but what the heck)

FWWI: Many times a slipping hydraulic clutch can be caused by incorrect lever freeplay adjustment. The piston inside the clutch master cylinder has to be unrestricted and return all the way back out and uncover the little vent hole to the reservoir or pressure can build up. Make sure there is alittle play (0.025" or so) between the lever and clutch push pin to ensure the vent hole is uncovered.

[andrzej]

The extra fluid equates to clutch drag in my experience. I dont "think" it would add to slip. ATF-F will be "grabbier". (not sure thats a word - but what the heck)

Interesting....

FWWI: Many times a slipping hydraulic clutch can be caused by incorrect lever freeplay adjustment. The piston inside the clutch master cylinder has to be unrestricted and return all the way back out and uncover the little vent hole to the reservoir or pressure can build up. Make sure there is alittle play (0.025" or so) between the lever and clutch push pin to ensure the vent hole is uncovered.

I'll check the free play. Once I drained the oil level to about 375, about 3/4 of the way up the sight window, the clutch slippage had dissipated. But it could be that it was pressure buildup in the clutch hydraulics system that caused it, and having the bike sit for an hour let it dissipate.

The PO emailed me today with some info on his kickstarter mods (which I'll post when I get a bit of time) and he also mentioned that he never experienced clutch slippage before. I have no reason to believe that he would mislead me about that....now that he has my money, there's no motivation to that. And I didn't adjust the clutch lever free play, so it's a bit of a mystery. We'll see what I find out tomorrow when I have a chance to check out your recommendation about the free play.

Thanks!

[2PLY]

As Laser said, the GG Pro is rather unique in that the main bearings are NOT big roller bearings as in the older GG engines and most if not all other 2-strokes. It's similar to automotive main bearings and relies on pressurized oil. This way, it's not lubed by the oil in the gas and the rest of the components need very little oil in the gas to get proper lube.

But because the same oil lubes the gears AND the clutch, microscopic metal pieces can build up quickly... Change the oil as often as you can afford it, but don't go any longer than Laser noted.

This main bearing change is one of the key reasons GG was able to shrink the engine width by 2-1/2" between the Pro and the previous engines. The Transmission redesign allowed all of the other dimensional changes... If you remember the photo comparison I posted a few weeks ago, take a look at the transmission portion of each engine... A MASSIVE change there!

[2PLY]

andrzej, if you live in Ontario, you live closer to Frostbite (Tim) than any of us. As you get dialed in on how to ride your new bike, you might want to consider a visit to Iqaluit, Nunavut for a ride. It gets lonely being the only Trials Rider way up there.

He has 3 250 GG Pro Bikes that he keeps just in case someone wants to visit and go for a ride in some of the most amazing landscape in the World.

I went last October and will go back whenever possible. I had a great time up there except for a previous injury that I had not fully recovered from. I'm mending now and hope to be strong enough to give it a second try this end of Summer... Have to wait till end of Mosquito season... for SURE!!! I'm not up to dealing with them between late June and middle of August... No Thanks!! ?

http://www.youtube.com/user/40BelowBiker#p/u/5/g8-Uv0ayIsk

[andrzej]

As Laser said, the GG Pro is rather unique in that the main bearings are NOT big roller bearings as in the older GG engines and most if not all other 2-strokes. It's similar to automotive main bearings and relies on pressurized oil. This way, it's not lubed by the oil in the gas and the rest of the components need very little oil in the gas to get proper lube.

But because the same oil lubes the gears AND the clutch, microscopic metal pieces can build up quickly... Change the oil as often as you can afford it, but don't go any longer than Laser noted.

At just over $4/litre for the ATF II/III, I have no problem changing the oil frequently! Appreciate the heads up on that. I did notice some metal bits on the drain bolt magnet when I refreshed the fluids....I'll keep a close eye on that for sure.

This main bearing change is one of the key reasons GG was able to shrink the engine width by 2-1/2" between the Pro and the previous engines. The Transmission redesign allowed all of the other dimensional changes... If you remember the photo comparison I posted a few weeks ago, take a look at the transmission portion of each engine... A MASSIVE change there!

Yup....saw those pics! I like the lighter weight of the Pro....it's very nimble, even to my beginner skills (or more accurately, lack thereof ? ).

andrzej, if you live in Ontario, you live closer to Frostbite (Tim) than any of us. As you get dialed in on how to ride your new bike, you might want to consider a visit to Iqaluit, Nunavut for a ride. It gets lonely being the only Trials Rider way up there.

He has 3 250 GG Pro Bikes that he keeps just in case someone wants to visit and go for a ride in some of the most amazing landscape in the World.

It's still a LONG way even from here! Though I would consider maybe taking a big cruiser up his way, if the roads allow it. Make for a really nice long distance road trip, which I haven't done in way too long. I can see it now:

"But dear, I NEED a new Yamaha Super Tenere for the trip to the arctic!".

Just checked mapquest....no land route....I wonder if there is a ferry from Labrador? I would expect so....anyway...won't be this summer!

I went last October and will go back whenever possible. I had a great time up there except for a previous injury that I had not fully recovered from. I'm mending now and hope to be strong enough to give it a second try this end of Summer... Have to wait till end of Mosquito season... for SURE!!! I'm not up to dealing with them between late June and middle of August... No Thanks!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/40BelowB.../5/g8-Uv0ayIsk

I'll check the video out and will definitely put a trip to ride with Frostbite on my "must do" list....after I figure out how to ride a trials bike!

Mind you, for first time yesterday, I didn't do too badly! My body is a bit stiff today from sledgehammering in the rebar into the logs and playing on the GG Pro yesterday. The log crossings are easy (tested 'em many times), at least on the GasGas. The 16' railway tie balance beam is tricky....I think out of 10 tries I managed to stay on it from end to end only twice. With a bit of practice on my balance and more familiarity with the bike, that should come. But coming off part way is no big deal. Didn't have enough confidence in my ability on the new bike to try the new teeter totter, so it's still a virgin teet! Might get my 16 year old nephew to do the

inaugural test tomorrow, since he's come up to do some riding with me this weekend (trails tomorrow....MX track Sunday). He's fearless and invulnerable, like most teens....and my wife kind of wanted to have someone

around/spotting when I try the tt the first time, for some reason. ;-)

I may get him to help me haul some 4' diameter, 2 foot high log cuts from the big 150 year old maple I had to drop last fall. They would make good "step up" style obstacles for a beginner to practice on.

But this aft I have to adjust my clutch....I think it has no free play, which caused the clutch slippage after some riding, per Laser's comment! Might pull the airbox section and see if I can do the washer trick on the muffler mounting too, since the tire is still rubbing on the larger log crossings.

[Gandalf_WR450]

Might pull the airbox section and see if I can do the washer trick on the muffler mounting too, since the tire is still rubbing on the larger log crossings.

I had this problem on both my Montesa and my Edition. I never got completely rid of the issue with the GG but heres what I found to get the best results.

-Work the pipe back by loosening bolts on mid box and head- as 2-Ply mentioned, the muffler 'pivots' on the secondary chambers mount, so positionment in front of that mount has an effect on the muffler.

-When you have muffler off, inspect the frame with eye or straight edges- on my GG I could see where crashes on the right side had altered where the muffler mount bolt is- some tweaking in that area got me the best results.

Mine still touches occasionally but I think I could prevent going the rest of the way through the muffler by placing a sacrificial 'pad' over the contact area. That chamber does not get very hot if repacked properly/frequently- I saw guys in Hawaii mounting machetes(trail clearing not personal protection) on their mufflers with canvas scabbards and they didnt seem to burn the canvas. I though about one of those heavy duty decals might protect the aluminum enough to live with some contact. Let us know what works.