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new top end break in cycle?

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I see what you mean nothing shows up for your search

when i first posted, i could click the link and it does go to teh search results. However later it won't. I'm guessing if anyone posts in any of the threads that show in the results, that link is no longer good (thus the specific number in the beginning of the link?? ) anyway, that's why i posted the very basic the parameters i used. :smirk:

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what do i have to do and how many hours do i have to do the break-in period for my new cylinder works top end? 08 crf 488cc bore.

If you do it right...and by that I mean a dry install....only lube the wrist pin. Dry rings, dry cylinder.

turn it over about 50 times then light it up. Let it idle until it pukes coolant out the over flow. Shut it down and let it cool and repeat this one more time....

They just rip it. Done!

I have done all my top ends this way and you will be amazed! Just did a full top and bottom and the JE HC piston that I tossed had 50 hrs on it and looked almost brand new, hardly no carbon at all except in the center about the size of a half-dollar. This is opposed to the OEM that was pulled at 60 hrs that look really bad...

Installing it dry will not hurt any thing......

theDogger:thumbsup::smirk:

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If you do it right...and by that I mean a dry install....only lube the wrist pin. Dry rings, dry cylinder.

turn it over about 50 times then light it up. Let it idle until it pukes coolant out the over flow. Shut it down and let it cool and repeat this one more time....

They just rip it. Done!

I have done all my top ends this way and you will be amazed! Just did a full top and bottom and the JE HC piston that I tossed had 50 hrs on it and looked almost brand new, hardly no carbon at all except in the center about the size of a half-dollar. This is opposed to the OEM that was pulled at 60 hrs that look really bad...

Installing it dry will not hurt any thing......

theDogger:thumbsup::smirk:

this topic of "dry" could go for 10 pages on it's own (pretty sure it has in fact..LOL). Do some searches, pretty sure Ron Hamp and other top builders do not consider "dry" truely dry..there is a compound that is to be used (a disulfide of some sort??), but not totally "dry". The only people/builders i heard of using this method are "shadetree" mechanics. Maybe there is one "reputable" builder (and by builder i mean someone that does them for a living..) but I am personally not aware of anyone that does this. This includes top AMA roadrace motor builders, and i could name a bunch..

to the OP, this is your motor, do what you will.. but i would do some research before assembly of a motor is done totally dry. It will hurt nothing to oil as the manual recomends, motors run in oil right? why risk not kicking enough times to prime the pump. take a few minutes to search, but it's your decision..

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but i would do some research before assembly of a motor is done totally dry.

Who said anything about putting a motor together DRY? That would be rather dumb:bonk:

When doing a new top end only the wrist pin is all that sees oil. Cylinder dry, piston dry and rings dry. Cylinder ball honed...everything else gets oiled as it should. I have done well over 80+ motors this way and never had one issue.

In fact I have to find the link and it is about a road racing engine builder that does this and swears by it. There is no need to oil the cylinder walls, rings or piston as it never see oil above the rings anyway.

I also would guess that by your post you are against tapping a new crank to center it in the bearings before dropping the cylinder on??

I'll post the link when I get home..

theDogger:thumbsup:

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i haven't done the top end yet nor will i be doing it.. but i want to be prepared for when it's done.. i am changing the piston, rings, and pin and i'm getting an old small engine mechanic to do it if he even can anymore.. i want to make sure he does it the right way and i want to make sure i break it in right

dogger when you mean turn it over 50 times or so you mean remove the spark plug and just kick it and count?

which brings up another question.. why is my bike so dam hard to kick over? is it in fact because of my big bore kit and i have to live with it or is there something i can do to make it easier to kick?

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Who said anything about putting a motor together DRY? That would be rather dumb:bonk:

When doing a new top end only the wrist pin is all that sees oil. Cylinder dry, piston dry and rings dry. Cylinder ball honed...everything else gets oiled as it should. I have done well over 80+ motors this way and never had one issue.

In fact I have to find the link and it is about a road racing engine builder that does this and swears by it. There is no need to oil the cylinder walls, rings or piston as it never see oil above the rings anyway.

I also would guess that by your post you are against tapping a new crank to center it in the bearings before dropping the cylinder on??

I'll post the link when I get home..

theDogger:thumbsup:

I knew exactly what you meant, i read the post, your talking about no oil in the cylinder or on the piston.. Im saying what i said.. You honestly didn't think i though you were talking about the ENTIRE motor being assembled dry?? give me some credit please..

There may be some (very few) builders that assemble with no oil, no compound, no nothing.. in the cyl/piston. These are few and far between, and i can assure you it is NOT a method practiced by any of the MANY known engine builders i know and have USED.. You may find a link, post away.. I did not say OR imply your wrong, or this won't work, or your motor would blow up.. I was saying it is not the most common method, and most builders WILL/DO use oil on teh cyl/piston(s) during assembly.. Period.

BallsDeep.. you kick the motor over a bunch with the plug out to bring oil psi up and move it arond the motor before you run it so no part of the engine is starved for oil even for a short time. A light film of oil is ideal on the cylinder/piston during assembly. I think you will find this to be the opinion of the majority of reputable builders.

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I knew exactly what you meant, i read the post, your talking about no oil in the cylinder or on the piston.. Im saying what i said.. You honestly didn't think i though you were talking about the ENTIRE motor being assembled dry?? give me some credit please..

There may be some (very few) builders that assemble with no oil, no compound, no nothing.. in the cyl/piston. These are few and far between, and i can assure you it is NOT a method practiced by any of the MANY known engine builders i know and have USED.. You may find a link, post away.. I did not say OR imply your wrong, or this won't work, or your motor would blow up.. I was saying it is not the most common method, and most builders WILL/DO use oil on teh cyl/piston(s) during assembly.. Period.

BallsDeep.. you kick the motor over a bunch with the plug out to bring oil psi up and move it arond the motor before you run it so no part of the engine is starved for oil even for a short time. A light film of oil is ideal on the cylinder/piston during assembly. I think you will find this to be the opinion of the majority of reputable builders.

Oh nothing personal...just ever since I have done a dry top I have never seen a cleaner piston come out at 50+hrs....

and as you are correct to each their own! But I will say this I have watch some factory mechanics do dry tops with no sort of lube. I won't name a team but they are major players in MX/SX.

This is the main reason that I started doing this way...After talking to them about it..it just made sense...

theDogger

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i haven't done the top end yet nor will i be doing it.. but i want to be prepared for when it's done.. i am changing the piston, rings, and pin and i'm getting an old small engine mechanic to do it if he even can anymore.. i want to make sure he does it the right way and i want to make sure i break it in right

dogger when you mean turn it over 50 times or so you mean remove the spark plug and just kick it and count?

which brings up another question.. why is my bike so dam hard to kick over? is it in fact because of my big bore kit and i have to live with it or is there something i can do to make it easier to kick?

just as MELK-MAN's made mention....

Modern 4-strokes do not need a break in like the old 2-stokes. wet or dry fire is up until it pukes...let it cool and repeat it and after it cools you are read to rip....450 are not as bad as the 250 4-strokes....the ring bite is what you are looking for..

theDogger

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What do you think Honda did when assembling your motor in the factory, putting the top end together dry? And if they did why would they say oil it in the manual? Why for the world would you do it differently than what the OEM manual calls for, your bike didn't break in properly when you bought it new?

When the factory teams are questioned on their break in procedure the common answer seems to be run the bike in moderation 3 times for 10-15 min and let it cool down completely after each run. It shouldn't be run or rev'd full out but there should be enough load on the motor to seat the rings. Not constant load but accelerating and decelerating which helps to press the rings against the cylinder wall. After the 3 break in rounds ride it like you stole it.

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while i agree honda doesn't assemble the cyl dry (i have no idea, but do not think they would do that..), the Honda manual break in procedure (lots of putting around, low rpm, then mid rpm, etc) is not used by anyone that im aware of.. most builders i know offer up "couple heat cycles of moderate revs with varying load, then run it like it will be raced".. It is unlikely that ANY properly assembled motor would just "blow up" no matter how it is broken in. Rev limiter from initial start up, or the long drawn out manual method.. Most are looking for the method that will make the most POWER ! :smirk: ...

and that brings up this.. all new to the sport SHOULD READ THIS (in my humble opinion), and even those that have been around a long time that just want "more info"..it's an article that has been floating around the interweb for years. The "mototuneusa" method: how to break in? short answer: "run it hard" .

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

It is a very controversial topic, and as i said earlier, this thread has 10 page potential.. LOL :smirk:

Edited by MELK-MAN

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Logically I can't see how a "dry" break in will do anything but risk the piston skirt.

If the crankcase has oil the pump will be oiling the cylinder with the squirter next to the cylinder. 50 cycles prior to fire up help the rings seat? The static compression is 70-90 when kicking. When the engine fires up the dynamic compression is about 1200PSI at 4K.

The microscopic grooves in the piston will hold oil and add lubricity to the most important area of the piston, the skirt. Engines are spinning on a hydrostatic barrier of oil and not actually making contact with opposing parts.

CArbon buildup on the piston could be a function of many issues like valve guides, fuel mixture, gas quality, poorly seated rings, etc.

I believe the key to break in is to heat cycle the engine to stress relieve the metals. Then take her out and load up the rings by ramping the throttle up and down staying away from extended high RPM runs for the first 10-15 minutes. Then ride it like you stole it!

There are a million opinions on this and I am far from a expert. Logic tells me this dry break in is hogwash!

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Ok, Dogger, I am suprised no one has threatened to come over and shoot your dog regarding this topic.

You be tempting the mainstay thinking of the motorsports industry, but I am one always looking for a new [better] way to do things.

Just a couple questions to clarify tings:

Dry rings and cylinder with 50 kicks is to help seat the rings faster compared to wet rings/cylinder? I would think with all those kicks the oil splashing would get up to the cylinder/rings by the end of 50 kicks?? yes/no

The 50 kicks is to pressure up the oil pump/system?

the idle to hot/cool and idle to hot/cool will lube/heat the rings/cylinder and heat cycle the new parts?

Keep the gas off during the 50 kicks? no point in drawing fuel into cylinder[2008 and earlier] don't know about the fuelie bikes

I like the mototuneusa idea and will soon use it on next top end i do [98 KTM 380 smoker].

By the way I am a dog lover so get me your address and i will send you a can of dog food.

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Dry rings and cylinder with 50 kicks is to help seat the rings faster compared to wet rings/cylinder?

The issue with the rings is this: the oil is too damn good. When you slather up the ring pack you take a chance of glazing the cylinder right out of the gate and then the rings never seat.

These engines use a Moly top ring. And there's only one. It'll either seat or not withing about 15 minutes. You can get a "sufficient" seal, but you wont achieve a 5% or less leak down, which is what you really want.

When the Honda factory assembles the top end, they dont use a quality 20-50 or whatever. They uses whats called "pale" oil or an S grade or no grade oil. Why? So the rings will seat. Thats why you should change the oil out of your brand new bike ASAP.

The 50 kicks is to pressure up the oil pump/system?

Pretty much. When you do this, the pump will squirt oil up on the interior of the cylinder and skirt area and oil it without slathering the ring pack.

Keep the gas off during the 50 kicks? no point in drawing fuel into cylinder[2008 and earlier] don't know about the fuelie bikes

Yes, for a couple different reasons tho.

1. You don't need to be pumping a relatively ideal A/F mixture into the air around a possibly badly grounded ignition that will set you and your bike and shop on fire. Typically I do it before I even put the tank in.

2. Why fight the compression? Kicking it with the plug out will reveal an assembly issue too, should there be one.

The Honda manual gives legally inert advice. Oiling the piston up and assembling it is one way of doing it. You wont stick the piston. You wont get perfect ring seal doing it that way either.

You don't have to turn the lights out and close up the windows to do your top end if you want to slather the piston with oil. Nobody really cares.

But when somebody asks whats a good way to do it, a dry assembly of the ring pack into the cylinder works.

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many (including the mototune method) suggest to not use full synth oils during break in, because as you pointed out.. todays (synth) oils are so slick it could inhibit good ring seal during that critical initial period. Using some dino (non synth) oil during the cyl assy doesn't really mean ya have to "slather" it up, just a light film is all that is necesarry.. Dry, wet, broiled, grilled.. whatever, :smirk: i'd be pissed if my guys put my motors together with no oil on the cyl walls.

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this is sounding more complicated than i originally thought it would be.. i better make sure whoever does this for me is doing it right.

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this is sounding more complicated than i originally thought it would be.. i better make sure whoever does this for me is doing it right.

then do it yourself its really not that complicated :smirk:

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i looked at my pdf 08 manual and looked at the pictures... but still i'm not sure i would know everything to do.. and i'd be too scared to mess something up or wreck my rings or not seat anything properly.. that and i have no torque wrench lol.

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