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non start - clueme

By ohgood,
in DRZ400/E/S/SM

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Grand Master

ohgood

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*********************************

*******UPDATED, still no start...*******

*********************************

after wondering and finding no real issues, this morning I started a new test. i installed my old stator that would RUN but not CHARGE the battery, and tried to start the bike. this stator WOULD RUN THE BIKE last time I had it in, but who knows how quickly they degrade. got me.

ok, and for those who question the battery, it spins the bike very easily. i charged it fully overnight, hoping to test the old stator this morning.

here are the battery voltages:

key off, 12.9V

IMG_20111012_120532.jpg

key on, 12.9v

IMG_20111012_120546.jpg

directly after starting, in recovery, lowest it dipped while starting was 12v or so:

IMG_20111012_120601.jpg

and pictures of the old burnt stator which I tried to start the bike with just now. (in pictures the old burnt one is not installed in the cover)

IMG_20111012_113613.jpg

IMG_20111012_113625.jpg

i'll agree neither of them looks good. i wiped off what i thought was just some dirty oil, but the windings are turning black on this "new" (only a month old) stator now.

so, what do you think is the source of my non-starting issue ?

symptom:

today's ride had a constant stutter @ 50 or faster mph. otherwise, power was fine, felt like an electrical and/or startvation problem.

diagnose (lol, me, whatever):

after arriving home i drained the bowl expecting to see globs of water/crap but didn't.

expected to see a crappy plug, but didn't. plug was tan/white/ashy, but just barely.

expected to see a nice big fat blue spark, but didn't. (spark was white/yellow)

expected to see a very wet plug after all the attempts at starting with/without choke, PRIME, etc - but didn't.

expected to see the battery drained completely but it was reading 12.5V, and 11.9V while attempting to start. figured it was low, so it's charging now.

observations:

fuel is flowing through the carb, at least through the bowl and if i open the check spigot it flows out nicely, without air or trash.

vaccuum line is connected, and pulling.

tank is 1/2 full, good flow.

bike has only had a stutter at 50mph (or greater) occasionally when the air filter was dirty, or it seemed to lesson after a cleaning. this has been a problem off/on since last summer.

so, what am i missing ?

Edited by ohgood
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Grand Master

ohgood

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MPH means little. Was the problem apparent in first and second gear to the rev limiter? Only occured in 4th and 5th?

Low battery is either a bad battery, poor connection (done the free power mod??) or a failing statir. one in 100,000 is a poor ground. Weak battery/staor often manifests as rpms rise.

not apparent in 1st-3rd, only in 4th-5th with load (wind resistance) at or above 50mph. vibration ? fueling ? dunno, it didn't do it a week ago. battery is one month old, strong, stator same. i'm going to groan if it's the stator again.

What are carb settings....any mods ?

3x3, and jetted proper with stock pipe. ran fine a week ago.

do the stator tests

man i really hope you and william1 are wrong. third stator inside of 1 1/2 years if you're right.

the spark -should- be fat and BLUE not white/yellow though, like a car's spark, right ?

1st stator test. (non running of course)

2nd will be attempting to get it running, then running stator test.

third will be dependant on 1 and 2.

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Grand Master

ohgood

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checked stator (as much as possible non-running) and 1-2-3 are have some resistance not continuous to ground = good

checked battery (applied car battery jump too) = good

checked spark = white, will fire gas dropped onto plug = good ?

checked carb = clean, no water, varnish or anything noticable. checked jets, clean and clear. checked float, appears to be working as normal. float needle appears to be seating/unseating with ease.

checked compression as best i can... i don't have a compression tester.

please remember the symptoms of yesterday's ride:

good power 1st - 3rd, 4th or 5th would stutter @ 50 or faster mph. (load) wheelied fine, statrted fine first time every time.

does not smoke, never has, white or other.

what have i missed ?

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Grand Master

ohgood

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Until you completely do the stator tests and move a step at a time, guessing will not fix your bike.

FYI, coils rarely fail, stators fail regularly.

That would be fairly easy, if the bike would start. Since it won't, its fairly difficult to test the output. There is normal resistance between leads, and no continuity to ground. I'm extremely familiar with stator failures.

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Grand Master

ohgood

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Spark color should be blue/white.

Battery voltage key off?

Battery voltage key on?

Thanks for the spark color, I think mine is fairly weak...

Key off= 13.9-14 depdning on the charge or using my car battery to assist (lots of starting attempts)

Key on= 13.0-13.5

Starting= jumps around but generally its 12.9-13.2 or so.

Spark is white, or yellow white, very little if any blue.

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Grand Master

ohgood

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the battery was getting depleted (12v or less)from all the attempts at starting, so I connected the car battery and jumped it after piutting the bikes on a charger.

Battery is less than 2months old, as is the stator. Its proven to charge at 14v at idle, and 13.5 or so at higher rpms= good for both.

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Grand Master

ohgood

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Your voltage numbers do not make sense. What are the voltages of the DRZ battery? No charger connected, no car battery?

Weak spark is usually a low battery or insufficient power from the stator. It could be a coil but is unlikely. Did you use a new spark plug?

Sorry, replied out of time...

Yes it has a good battery, usually 13-14v depending on how long the bike has sat unused. Yes, I have two new plugs. That was one of the first things I tried. I belive the original was a ngk-r cr8e, same as the new ones.

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Grand Master

William1

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Sorry, replied out of time...

Yes it has a good battery, usually 13-14v depending on how long the bike has sat unused. Yes, I have two new plugs. That was one of the first things I tried. I belive the original was a ngk-r cr8e, same as the new ones.

No lead acid battery has over 13 Volts even if fully charged and then let sit for a 30 minutes (the correct method).

Unless you test things accurately, you will not get a correct solution. We can guess till the cows come home, replacing every part that 'might be the problem'. You already started to do this with the stator.

Your ignition is powered by the battery, which is charged by the stator. If the battery is truly fully charged, then even with the stator yellow leads disconnected, the bike would still run until the battery voltage drops too much.

The crank position sensor can go bad and it is possible yours is however, if your bike sparks, it sparks, because the spark is fired by the sensor (and you claim to get a spark) and powered by the battery.

Do the tests accurately and stop guessing.

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Grand Master

ohgood

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No lead acid battery has over 13 Volts even if fully charged and then let sit for a 30 minutes (the correct method).

I corrected the voltages in my first post- even posted pictures... I'm fairly certain the battery sat for at least 3 hours before I put my ole volt meter on it.

Unless you test things accurately, you will not get a correct solution. We can guess till the cows come home, replacing every part that 'might be the problem'. You already started to do this with the stator.

Again, how am I to accurately test the stator (I'm assuming that's what you're refering to) without the bike running ? I have checked the resistance between leads, and continuity to ground. The other test in the FAQ shows the bike running, and the VAC output- right ?

If you are refering to replacing parts (the stator I swapped to test if hte bike would START, and start only) that was a test to see if the first coil was shot on my current statot. As I said, that stator would run the bike, but not charge the battery. I believe those are two seperate coils completely- correct me if I'm wrong here.

Your ignition is powered by the battery, which is charged by the stator. If the battery is truly fully charged, then even with the stator yellow leads disconnected, the bike would still run until the battery voltage drops too much.

Agreed- this is why I tried with both the drz's (supposedly good the last month or so) battery and my truck's more than ample voltage/amperage supply. I was hoping to eliminate the drz's battery as a problem point.

The crank position sensor can go bad and it is possible yours is however, if your bike sparks, it sparks, because the spark is fired by the sensor (and you claim to get a spark) and powered by the battery.

Agreed, there is a spark, I don't believe it's as strong as it should be, but will leave that be for now since I don't have another coil pack (yet) to compare.

Do the tests accurately and stop guessing.

This is the part I don't understand what you're refering to. If the bike doesn't run, what are you refering to testing ? The stator has been tested both between the yellow leads for continunity to ground and resistance (impedence, not sure the terminology) between themselves..

I'm not trying to guess my way though, I'm trying to eliminate each and every possible failing part with what I have available. Please direct me to what other testing you're refering to.

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