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NEW BIKES from the Big 4!!

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It would be nice to see the big four offer some NEW bikes that target different disciplines of dirt biking. The big four should consider offering NEW 2 strokes that will compete with KTM XC line of bikes. They have to be equipped with all the necessary requirements in order to pass inspection at the local DMV, be trail friendly while being race ready. The YZ's are great bikes but were designed for close-course racing. Yamaha use to offer the IT and MX versions of their 2 strokes as did Kawasaki with the KDX, and Suzuki with the ol' PE.

KTM has cornered the off-road market, which is fine. It would cool to see the Big 4 dust off the old blue-prints of the old school bikes as I mentioned earlier, and get back in the off-road game and compete with all KTM's. The KTM 300 XC is a BEAST. I'd like to see one of the big 4 offer a bike like that for the off-roader..Yamaha IT350 2 stroke..that would be off the chain.

We need some NEW offroad bikes that are non-motocross..

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But motocross is what sells bikes dude. Especially in the US.

When you see millions of people tuning into the GNCC races... then perhaps, but until that day, it's motocross bikes. Always has been.

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YES!

I have a kdx 200 but it wud be nice to get a newer version (especially a trail 2 stroke)

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Yea! That's what I'm saying @asmed12345. I know motocross/supercross is the creme' de la creme but like you said it would be cool to see a 2012 KDX200!

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Ktm ran away with the market when it come's to Off road 2-strokes that's for sure.When I go riding at Carnegie which is one of the great places to ride on the planet,you will find older and newer 2-strokes all day converted to off road bikes.Softer suspension, bigger tanks,flywheel weight changes,and so on.I'm game if one of the top 4 Jap company's came out with a 2-smoke off road worth, I would be on board.👍

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But motocross is what sells bikes dude. Especially in the US.

When you see millions of people tuning into the GNCC races... then perhaps, but until that day, it's motocross bikes. Always has been.

If Speed would broadcast GNCC races, then it would be "that day". Hard to draw viewers to programming that doesn't exist.

Besides, all the top level GNCC racers are on 450 MX bikes.

It's the demands of the average rider/amateur racer that sells offroad bikes. The Big 4 didn't listen to the demands, and KTM did. As a result, you can't find a new KTM woods bike for sale around here by May. Meanwhile Yamaha/Honda (the only 2 who make offroad bikes at all anymore) are begging people to by leftover WR/CRF-Xs at hugely reduced prices.

If the Big 4 made a 2 stroke woods bike, I'm sure they would sell. But they've been pushing the 4 stroke fad so long that it would take some major R&D and retooling to make a new 2 stroke offroad bike that would compete with the KTMs in the woods. So they stay with the MX market where the 4 strokes are wanted, and leave the offroad world to KTM, Berg, and GasGas.👍

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I made the switch from a Honda 250F to a KTM 250 2 stroke. Either you know or don't know. A lot of people buy into the misinformation about 2 strokes such as they are less eco-friendly (not true), unmanagable powerbands (untrue in modern 2 strokes), uncompetitive (untrue, imo), can't be lugged uphill like a 4 stroke (untrue). 2 strokes are a much simpler motor design that has fewer moving parts, is much easier to work on for the average guy and in the long run cheaper to operate. The big 4 don't want the average guy to be working on his bike, because it takes away service dollars from dealers, parts are more expensive and more of them for 4 strokes, so there is more money to be made there and they can jack the price up because of the more parts that are put into a 4 stroke so the profit margin is better. 2 stroke technology has come a long way, but it has been at the hands of a few small niche manufacturers (KTM being the largest, but still small in scale compared to the Japanese). 2 strokes with e-start, completely tunable motors for rider ability, preferance, type of riding, linkage, etc. If the AMA displacement rule went away it would change the racing scene. I don't believe that racing on Sunday changes what is bought on Mondays. If that was the case Suzuki would have been the leading seller for the last several years, followed by Kawi then Yamaha and last Honda. Which we all know is not the case. So the MX/SX argument is moot, imo. There was just a decision made on the part of the Japanese that they wanted to go to 4 strokes and again, my opinion, manipulated the rules to create a market for a more expensive machine with a massive marketing campaign to go along with it. The only 2 strokes in the Japanese line up are the 6 year old YZ250, KX65, RM65/85. No 125, 250, 500's. Let alone tweener bikes like the 105, 144, 200, 300. It is personal peferance and if you want to ride a 4 stroke, doesn't bother me, I'm not a hater. My wife still rides a highly modded 250X (and she is a very good rider-former racer). One of the main reasons her bike is nodded and I got rid of mine was she did have the much talked about catastophic engine failure used in the pro 2 stroke argument. It does happen, guys and it ain't pretty when it does. That's not say it can't happen with a 2 stroke, but doing a top end in a 2 stroke is 45 minutes and a couple of hundred bucks. A top end in a 4 stroke is considerably more. Just sayin'.

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The big 4 japanese bike makers are pretty much set on 4 strokes for now so anything two stroke and dual sport is very unlikely to happen unless you feel inclined do a motor swap into a roller bike or steeling doc's Delorean to go see if the future is bright in the japanese market. Right now though TM,Husaberg, and husqvarna all have 2 stroke dual sport bikes through the 300cc range that can compete very well against the ktm xc line.

I would personally like to see ATK bikes make a comeback in the bike scene with some competitive products or possibly even Harley Davidson if they decided to make dirtbikes again.

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You have Husqvarna, GasGas and TM racing offering offroad specific bikes. All of them easily compete with KTM.

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Personally I am glad that the big 4 have been left in the dust in the offroad market. KTM stuck with and made there company huge based solely on a niche market that the big 4 didnt see any money in...and now they are reaping all of the benefits. I don't think the big 4 will ever re-enter this market because they know now that KTM specifically, and a couple other smaller companies have this market on lock down. I've owned bikes from all the big 4 besides Kawi, and I'll tell you that their quality doesn't come close to matching that of a KTM

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If Speed would broadcast GNCC races, then it would be "that day". Hard to draw viewers to programming that doesn't exist.

Besides, all the top level GNCC racers are on 450 MX bikes.

It's the demands of the average rider/amateur racer that sells offroad bikes. The Big 4 didn't listen to the demands, and KTM did. As a result, you can't find a new KTM woods bike for sale around here by May. Meanwhile Yamaha/Honda (the only 2 who make offroad bikes at all anymore) are begging people to by leftover WR/CRF-Xs at hugely reduced prices.

If the Big 4 made a 2 stroke woods bike, I'm sure they would sell. But they've been pushing the 4 stroke fad so long that it would take some major R&D and retooling to make a new 2 stroke offroad bike that would compete with the KTMs in the woods. So they stay with the MX market where the 4 strokes are wanted, and leave the offroad world to KTM, Berg, and GasGas.👍

So in short... The japanese 4 are "bad" and won't give riders what they want?

You forget that they're making big bucks on what they DO sell. How many threads have you seen on here with people trying to turn 450's into offroad bikes?

They're not changing because what they're doing is making them money. KTM was sucking hind tit and HAD to be innovative. If you're making a boat load of cash you don't need to be innovative. It's business.

Even more so, all of KTM's 2 strokes are cheaper than their 4 strokes.

Lastly and probably most importantly. The Japanese 4 didn't become the biggest names in bikes because they made bad business decisions. They're smart people and do a TON of market research, much more than any of us on TT do. If it was profitable for them to make 2 strokes with the same passion that KTM does, they'd do it.

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So in short... The japanese 4 are "bad" and won't give riders what they want?

You forget that they're making big bucks on what they DO sell. How many threads have you seen on here with people trying to turn 450's into offroad bikes?

They're not changing because what they're doing is making them money. KTM was sucking hind tit and HAD to be innovative. If you're making a boat load of cash you don't need to be innovative. It's business.

Even more so, all of KTM's 2 strokes are cheaper than their 4 strokes.

Lastly and probably most importantly. The Japanese 4 didn't become the biggest names in bikes because they made bad business decisions. They're smart people and do a TON of market research, much more than any of us on TT do. If it was profitable for them to make 2 strokes with the same passion that KTM does, they'd do it.

True it is business, but there are facets to the business that come into play that you aren't addressing. Number one the Japanese have so much other income, if they are losing a portion of a market share that is probably the smallest product line they sell, it isn't going to matter to them for quite a while. Second, there are a ton of trail riders that want another choice. Third the amateur racing scene is dominated by 2 strokes, especially in the schoolboy1 and below, despite Honda's concerted effort to allow the 150F to compete with 85's. They want to manufacture a need for their product line through affecting rule changes within the AMA by pushing their weight around. They could care a less what the consumer wants. If given only one choice, you don't have a choice do you? That is what the Japanese want. Doesn't matter what color, same crap different pile. It wouldn't be different than if they said we are now only producing electric cars and if you want gas, it won't be from a Japanese manufacturer (although that is a bit exaggerated, as there are a lot more car manufacturers than just the Japanese...). So I guess that means I am buying an electric car. Why should the big 4 be able to dictate the racing rules? At least they can't dictate consumer demand, but again they don't care because people will continue to buy them if they don't like Euro bikes.

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But motocross is what sells bikes dude. Especially in the US.

When you see millions of people tuning into the GNCC races... then perhaps, but until that day, it's motocross bikes. Always has been.

what drugs are you smoking?

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So in short... The japanese 4 are "bad" and won't give riders what they want?

So, you think it's a "good" thing to not want to sell the buying public what they want to buy?

You forget that they're making big bucks on what they DO sell. How many threads have you seen on here with people trying to turn 450's into offroad bikes?

Trying is the correct phrase. And usually spending way more doing it than they would have by just buying a 450XC-F outright.

And, just what is the profit margin on a new Japanese 450? And the profit margin on all the '11s, and '10s I see left over in the showrooms, discounted $1000 or more and still not selling? There was a leftover '09 YZ450 here at the local dealer priced at $5999, how much do you think they were gonna make on that one?

If you're making a boat load of cash you don't need to be innovative. It's business.

That statement is a bankruptcy attorney's wet dream.:ride:

Even more so, all of KTM's 2 strokes are cheaper than their 4 strokes.

Yes, they are. 2 strokes are cheaper to manufacture, so they can sell them for less. It's a rare form of business these days called "not trying to bend your customers over".

Lastly and probably most importantly. The Japanese 4 didn't become the biggest names in bikes because they made bad business decisions. They're smart people and do a TON of market research, much more than any of us on TT do. If it was profitable for them to make 2 strokes with the same passion that KTM does, they'd do it.

Around this particular part of the country, the Big 4 aren't "the biggest names in bikes" anymore.

It's not profitable for the Big 4 because they've fallen so far behind all the innovation that KTM has done in 2 strokes (and 4 stroke offroad bikes too for that matter), it would cost them a fortune to R&D a catch up effort. The Japanese Big 4 became the Big 4 when they had no competition but each other. Now that is changing, and cash, along with model updates, are becoming ever more scarce.

In the end, KTM was the only motorcycle corporation to come through the financial crash operating in the black. Sounds like they're doing something right.👍

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I don't really care if the Japs make 2 strokes competitive. I have husky, gas-gas, ktm, burg, and TM to choose from. I'm not gonna support the Japanese companies that stopped making 2 strokes so they could promote these high strung 4 strokes. Then, on top of that they stop making the older style 4 strokes which were really popular bikes. All honda had to do was update XR 200/250/400 here and there and they would keep selling. Same with the Kawi KDX since the KDX is really just a trail bike. Just awful.

Also, why are people begging the japs to bring 2 strokes back? They are the ones that created the displacement bullshit. Anyways, plenty of nice euro 2 strokes out there.

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Again, another thread about ktm's dominance. Ktm does NOT rule the offroad market, by any means. Yes they have a good hand in it, and lots of guys ride ktms... But thats because for a while thats all that was really available.

Beta and Gasgas have come out swinging in the offroad market. Gasgas alone has come on so strong in the last few years, in most places its 50/50 gasgas vs ktm. Most riders ive met that have ridden a gasgas, end up buying one in the next year or so. Most people think gasgas has a better product (all personal opinion, no flaming please).

European bikes are killer, They just have a hard time getting estabalished over here.

In the next 5 years, you will see the power switch from ktm to being more spread out, or heavily biased to gasgas.

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Again, another thread about ktm's dominance. Ktm does NOT rule the offroad market, by any means. Yes they have a good hand in it, and lots of guys ride ktms... But thats because for a while thats all that was really available.

Beta and Gasgas have come out swinging in the offroad market. Gasgas alone has come on so strong in the last few years, in most places its 50/50 gasgas vs ktm. Most riders ive met that have ridden a gasgas, end up buying one in the next year or so. Most people think gasgas has a better product (all personal opinion, no flaming please).

European bikes are killer, They just have a hard time getting estabalished over here.

In the next 5 years, you will see the power switch from ktm to being more spread out, or heavily biased to gasgas.

I think your right, but down here Gas Gas is to off road, what KTM was to MX 5-6 years ago. I rode an enduro on Jordan Brandts minute earlier this year...he was probably one of the fastest riders I've seen in person. He rode a Gas Gas 300 2T

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But motocross is what sells bikes dude. Especially in the US.

When you see millions of people tuning into the GNCC races... then perhaps, but until that day, it's motocross bikes. Always has been.

Yes MX does give the most exposure of everything but out of the 50-60 people I know that ride, myself and maybe 4-5 others are the only ones who race and only 2 of us were really competitive at that. Creating a great bike that would tailor to the needs of non racers would be a good market to enter, and Im not talking XR/TTr bull shit bikes either.

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