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XRR-T (turbo,USD,EFI)

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Seems an appropriate time to make a thread on this bike over here on TT for some opinions and suggestions.

So the project started out when i got the itch to do a turbo supermoto and my 05' YZ450 wasnt gonna cut it in that department so on further research the BAJA king was going to suffice rather well.

I recieved the bike as seen in supermoto trim w/ dirt wheel spares. It was converted, de-corked, and barely enough crap wiring to make it street legal.

IMG_0558.jpg

Rode it a few times to see what i wanted to do fo rthe bike then what i originally purchased it for.

As it sits now....

06' CRF USD fork conversion with evolution motorsports conversion bearing.

self rewound stator- untested but should net 200 watt

Buell Firebolt projector headlights

Rad cush hub Supermoto wheel set

Brembo radial 320mm brake setup w/ KFX450 1/2" master cylinder

IMG_0349.jpg

And now im working on the turbo header made from 1.5" ss birdcrapped together with my 110v mig as i dont have a backpurge kit setup for my TIG :) should have just left it tacked and waited till i got it so ill be needing to redo the welds and maybe the entire manifold.

IMG_0362.jpg

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I will be using a GT1548 turbo so should net me decent responce and HP figures but im only looking for 80-100 at the wheel :lol:

You may be wondering how i will be boosting a 10:1 motor and the easy answer would be E85 BUT we dont have enough e85 stations local for my taste so this needs to run on 91-93 pump. Through some research i have found the Subaru WRX EJ25 has 99.5mm pistons and most manufactures make .020 over pistons putting it at 100mm however the stock compression height is 30.7 and that wont work for the XRR as it is 28.75ish. This all leads us to the JE pistons Subaru .5mm over EJ25 stroker piston which should net me about 8.5:1 compression and they sell them individually :banghead: oh yeah!

http://www.jepistons.com/Products/291064.aspx

All the while i am currently working with captain midnight on getting a trigger wheel made for the microsquirt v3.0 i have waiting to go in as well. My plans for the EFI are to use the V3.0, TL1000 throttle body, and Street bike fuel pump anything under 5 amps should work. I plan on making it an intank fuel system as space is limited on these for what im planning. This will be accomplished by using an IMS 3.2gal Dry Break fuel tank so i have room to get in the tank for mounting the pump.

Thats kind of the quick run down and you can see all of it here.

http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?117950-Turbo-XR650R-w-USD-forks-conversion....-for-now

Now if anyone has any suggestions im all ears. I do also have a few questions. Anyone have a HP idea that the stock rod will handle? I have a spare crank that i picked up and want to install a Carillo rod and get the Subaru piston rotating assembly balanced, does anyone have good suggestions of companies that will do a quality job on this? as you can imagine Im looking for a qaulity job on this not necessarily the cheapest.

So theres the start for you guys to gander at, and for those wondering or think iv bastardized the baja beast I have maintained a set of dirt trim wheels for it too.

z

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Personally to speed it up, I dont see why you donot use a drawthrough carb setup.

Drawthrough would eliminate the need for a intercooler, especially with e85. Tuning would be super easy, you just need a way to retard/advance ignition timing. And jet the bike, this would avoid closed/open loop and all that mess.

Also I would watch the weight of using automotive pistons. Lowering your compression might make it a dog off boost, also would take longer to spool as the engine is moving less air/fuel.

I would keep it a decent compression and be far more worried about snapping a crank or something in the gearbox before I would be worried about rod. E85 has way too many benefits on a turbo application to walk away from due to availability. Buy 25-30 gallons at a time and store it at home.

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Hmm looks like I didn't make my goals clear. Thanks for the input but I'm not looking for the quick fix fastest way to get it going I'm looking for the best easiest tuning as this is not a weekend warrior I'm building it to ride daily even if I don't get to I have the ability on this bike.

Piston weight is not a concern JE lists xrr weight 396g and sumaru weight 405g I think I can find 10g pretty easily. As far as being a dog off boost maybe but I'm once again not looking for a race bike it's strictly street and from what I'm reading on others doing turbos to single cylinder bikes is they are almost always in boost with the "appropriate" sized turbo. I say that because these are single pistons moving huge snouts of air compared to say a liter bike moving less air per cylinder it's just more constant with 4 cyl feeding the turbo so the large amount from the xrr will end up making the turbo seem undersized, how much time will tell if it's just too much the turbo will change.

And don't get menwrong I have an e85 station 4 miles from my house not a concern but with a bike that only gets 70-80 miles per tank kinda limits my range don't ya think, once again that would make it not a street friendly build. This is the reason for getting away from e85 for now.

The crank will get welded with the new rod so unless the crank snaps in half it shouldn't split. Turbo and these HP figures have been done already, there's the swede that did it he has videos on utube but from what little info iv found is up to 100 lower compression and welded crank was good to go 125+ he started flattening lower rod bearings. I'm not looking for huge boost and max to the limit hP figures just some decent numbers in an essentially heavy supermoto all translating into one hell of a steet ride.

Z

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Hmm looks like I didn't make my goals clear. Thanks for the input but I'm not looking for the quick fix fastest way to get it going I'm looking for the best easiest tuning as this is not a weekend warrior I'm building it to ride daily even if I don't get to I have the ability on this bike.

Piston weight is not a concern JE lists xrr weight 396g and sumaru weight 405g I think I can find 10g pretty easily. As far as being a dog off boost maybe but I'm once again not looking for a race bike it's strictly street and from what I'm reading on others doing turbos to single cylinder bikes is they are almost always in boost with the "appropriate" sized turbo. I say that because these are single pistons moving huge snouts of air compared to say a liter bike moving less air per cylinder it's just more constant with 4 cyl feeding the turbo so the large amount from the xrr will end up making the turbo seem undersized, how much time will tell if it's just too much the turbo will change.

And don't get menwrong I have an e85 station 4 miles from my house not a concern but with a bike that only gets 70-80 miles per tank kinda limits my range don't ya think, once again that would make it not a street friendly build. This is the reason for getting away from e85 for now.

The crank will get welded with the new rod so unless the crank snaps in half it shouldn't split. Turbo and these HP figures have been done already, there's the swede that did it he has videos on utube but from what little info iv found is up to 100 lower compression and welded crank was good to go 125+ he started flattening lower rod bearings. I'm not looking for huge boost and max to the limit hP figures just some decent numbers in an essentially heavy supermoto all translating into one hell of a steet ride.

Z

The best easiest tuning would be a drawthrough carb, and e85, jet it and go. Especially if it is not a pumper carb way less to mess with. I dont imagine an engine designed to have 50ish hp running 100hp+ reliably and daily, much less be forgiving to ANY detonation.

With 91 im sure you will be pulling tons of timing, thus having to makeup for the power elsewhere.

It will be awesome even if you short shoot yourself down to 70hp or so, it will still rip something crazy. I just think the microsquirt will be a pita to get setup correctly.

The drawthrough carb with e85 or water injection would work to keep the intake temps down naturally vs FI without an intercooler.

More pics :lol:

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The best easiest tuning would be a drawthrough carb, and e85, jet it and go. Especially if it is not a pumper carb way less to mess with. I dont imagine an engine designed to have 50ish hp running 100hp+ reliably and daily, much less be forgiving to ANY detonation.

With 91 im sure you will be pulling tons of timing, thus having to makeup for the power elsewhere.

It will be awesome even if you short shoot yourself down to 70hp or so, it will still rip something crazy. I just think the microsquirt will be a pita to get setup correctly.

The drawthrough carb with e85 or water injection would work to keep the intake temps down naturally vs FI without an intercooler.

More pics :lol:

Well there are two camps on EFI vs CARB and we all need to make a decission on what works best for us so in the debate for me carb is no longer viable and a waste of time and energy for the overall goal. Yes it would be faster to get going NO it will not provide the easiest tuning solution period. with constantly changing temps and altitudes like visiting my brother in colorado a carb is just more work im not willing to deal with. The EFI no doubt will be more initial setup IE: the required sensors and injectors BUT the outcome is far greater not having to deal with temp and climate changes through jetting and any changes can be made in minutes without getting fuel all over ect.

Once again E85 is a very tempting and viable solution....for some it however is not going to work for my requirements.

1. I need to be able to get gas anywhere

2. The intercooler is a maintenance free intake charge cooling device unlike water and E85 once again not readily enough available for such little tank capacity.

3. Draw through carb is great however no intercooler no cold weather riding as the carb will freeze up ect.

4. 91-93 will meet my HP requirement at the lower compression ratio.

5. low compression turbo setup puts less stress on the motor 95% of riding time. YES i will be making double the HP the stock motor had BUT only 2-5%of the time compared to a high compression screaming race built motor which regardless of RPM still has high wear and tear compared to the turbo setup. making it actually very viable for long term no hassle street use.

Its all about the planning, setup, and execution of these projects that make them a success to your final goals. it is a project after all and if already looked into it and when i get better with the microsquirt software it has the ability to add in E85 sensor for seamless E85 capability not that it will be needed like i said earlier. who knows once she fires back up this bike may make it into the hybrid/flex fuel realm.

Ill be sure to post more pics as it progresses no worries.

z

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1.) Personally to speed it up, I dont see why you donot use a drawthrough carb setup. Drawthrough would eliminate the need for a intercooler, especially with e85. Tuning would be super easy, you just need a way to retard/advance ignition timing. And jet the bike, this would avoid closed/open loop and all that mess.

2.) E85 has way too many benefits on a turbo application to walk away from due to availability. Buy 25-30 gallons at a time and store it at home.

1.) Drawthrough doesn't eliminate the need for an intercooler, it eliminates the ability to use one. It also requires a compatible(carbon/positive) compressor seal which I do not think is available for a Garrett GT15.

2.) One reason not to use e85 IMO is that the ethanol percentage varies so widely(15%) not just seasonally, but between individual batches. It also will have to be stored in a truly airtight container (like steel) or it won't have a very long shelf life.

As far as being a dog off boost maybe but I'm once again not looking for a race bike it's strictly street and from what I'm reading on others doing turbos to single cylinder bikes is they are almost always in boost with the "appropriate" sized turbo.

I doubt cutting the compression down to 8.5:1 is going to make it soft off-boost. Even if it does, the Microsquirt will allow for fun tricks that make the turbo come on sooner. :lol:

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1.) Drawthrough doesn't eliminate the need for an intercooler, it eliminates the ability to use one. It also requires a compatible(carbon/positive) compressor seal which I do not think is available for a Garrett GT15.

2.) One reason not to use e85 IMO is that the ethanol percentage varies so widely(15%) not just seasonally, but between individual batches. It also will have to be stored in a truly airtight container (like steel) or it won't have a very long shelf life.

I doubt cutting the compression down to 8.5:1 is going to make it soft off-boost. Even if it does, the Microsquirt will allow for fun tricks that make the turbo come on sooner. :lol:

Yes the fuel would re-condense in an intercooler which is the reasoning behind not being able to use one as well as not a good idea to have any upwards moving bends as the fuel can puddle as well.

Well yes E85 varies immensely between temps, humidity, production, and seasonal blends but that why flex fuel vehicles have an ethanol sensor in the fuel to correctly determine fuel needed based on the mix in the lines which is how you can swap back and forth between E85 and reg gas without issue.

And by no means do i think it will be a dog with 8.5:1 at all lol it may not be peak performance but theres enough to get the pig moving with a quickness and if I'v rough calculated this right ill have full boost by 3500 rpm so no worries on lacking power when needed either. :)

z

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She runs and drives! nothing really to note but the wiring is done enough to test the running hardware and then the turbo will start to be installed. Only wiring issues i had when all is said and done was i had one plug a pin off so i had to repin and then the headlight assembly worked perfect. And there is something wrong with my blinker setup ill have to dive into. Im using the CBR light switch and for the blinkers there are 6 wires 2 powers and then the blinker wires the issue i have is there are running lights and then blinkers. The switch is designed to turn off the running light when you flip to the blinker which happens however the LED blinker doesnt come on and blink for some reason. Ill have to investigate, as right now when you turn on the blinker left or right that side lights just turn off instead of blinking.

The stator puts out enough juice to run the low beam HID and blinkers with fan running at idle without a battery :thumbup: when you turn on the high beam it still works but pulses its just over the amp draw im putting out at idle.

And a crappy burnout as 99% of it works first time no issues so far. Ill review more of the upgrades later. USD's CUSH exc...

walk around single radiator testing

crappy burnout after initial testing drive

hopefully this uploads right

z

Edited by proz07

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So the fuel injection is working, or have you not done that yet either?

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So the fuel injection is working, or have you not done that yet either?

Not yet I had the bike ripped apart for the USD swap rewire the street lighting and what not added a fuse block ect. I wanted to make sure the bike was street safe before i venture into the EFI.

I am however gathering all the required parts and pieces for the conversion, and the one piece I was unsure about is being made as we speak the crank trigger wheel. I got a CAD file from a guy here also ding EFI on his XRR and had a 24 tooth trigger wheel made for the flywheel.

It will be a few months before I will be able to put on the EFI but once i do it shouldnt be but a day or two from start to running bike short of major component issues.

What iv done so far can be seen on the supermotojunkie.com link i posted, this is just a small view into what is happening with the bike but feel free to ask questions here by all means. Ill be more than happy to answer.

Suggestions are good too

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i did run my bike with a turbo set up and cr was fine at around 9.2:1 cr now i just start a new setup for my drz upgrade the turbo to a gt1544, the ihi rhb31 was way too small i was building boost at 2000rpm should be good with the gt1544 i gonna use microsquirt too, i will start a tread soon put more pics when you are into it

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Only just found this post, I like it!

Had to laugh at the idea of a draw through set up with an intercooler, obviously proz07 and HeadTrauma are correct about the technical reasons for not using one, but for me the key reason for not using one would be the thought of having a whole intercooler full of fuel/air mix!!! Can you imagine what an otherwise minor backfire would do?!?! :banghead:

Edited by Munkeykid17

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Ok so im getting closer although its taking time. im not going to update here till its done for end results but if you guys want to see its progression view here.

http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?117950-Turbo-XR650R-w-USD-forks-conversion-for-now/page4

I am getting to the point of sensors and i should have been dealing with this more so over the build. Currently I am wanting to use the OEM VR XRR sensor since its already there and all i have to do is add teeth for reference. and thats where Im at just before getting the XRR flywheel modded.

Here is how I plan to mount the trigger wheel on the XRR flywheel Im going to be sending it off to a supermoto member to get some lathe work done to trim down the outside of the XRR flywheel so the ring just presses over it so i can then verify degree and then tack weld on.

IMG_0727_zps3556505e.jpg

My plan is to lathe down the flywheel from the engine side till there is about 1/16" left of the stock trigger tooth so that i can use that as the TDC reference and align the trigger wheel which i believe would be the rear edge when sitting on the bike and the tooth facing up. but i need to verify.

IMG_0728_zps2affc550.jpg

any better ideas? or conformation of TDC ect... Can I use the microsquirt with a single trigger tooth? if so i could make sure the system works first then add the 24t trigger later.

Z

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1.) My plan is to lathe down the flywheel from the engine side till there is about 1/16" left of the stock trigger tooth so that i can use that as the TDC reference and align the trigger wheel which i believe would be the rear edge when sitting on the bike and the tooth facing up. but i need to verify.

2.) Can I use the microsquirt with a single trigger tooth? if so i could make sure the system works first then add the 24t trigger later.

1.) That has to do with leading- or trailing-edge trigger settings in software. Either can be used and IIRC, the type of hardware and how it is set up has a bearing on which is used.

2.) Yes it can, you just won't be able to control ignition.

Someone mentioned the FSAE forum in your SMJ thread and linked to a thread there posted by someone turbocharging a Cannondale quad for personal use. Searching and reading is fine (there's a ton of great information), but it's really there as a resource for engineering students participating in their university's FSAE program rather than a forum for the general public to use. Just FYI.

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1.) That has to do with leading- or trailing-edge trigger settings in software. Either can be used and IIRC, the type of hardware and how it is set up has a bearing on which is used.

2.) Yes it can, you just won't be able to control ignition.

Someone mentioned the FSAE forum in your SMJ thread and linked to a thread there posted by someone turbocharging a Cannondale quad for personal use. Searching and reading is fine (there's a ton of great information), but it's really there as a resource for engineering students participating in their university's FSAE program rather than a forum for the general public to use. Just FYI.

I see what your saying about the FSAE site i kinda thought that every time i ever saw anything from it.

Ill have to really tear into the Microsquirt software and setup here then it seems, iv been kinda basing my decisions on general knowledge of it i just need to read the tech aspect now. Its good to know i can at least run the bike with just the single trigger if that takes time to finish but i should really sort that out ASAP.

thanks

z

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I noticed your trigger wheel doesn't have any missing teeth. Is it going to, or will you use an additional single-tooth trigger on the cam for TDC?

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I noticed your trigger wheel doesn't have any missing teeth. Is it going to, or will you use an additional single-tooth trigger on the cam for TDC?

currently i actually have a few wheels made 2x 1/8" but they I think are too narrow for the OEM sensor and 2x 1/4" wheels i plan to use and currently ill grind off a tooth when i get it indexed and tacked on but like i said i need to get into the microsquirt data more than i have been. I do kinda want to add in the Cam position sensor but i Also dont think its entirely needed in this although would be nice. Ill let you know soon.

Still want to finish making the hard parts which are almost done if i had more time lol

z

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just checked out your other thread: http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?117950-Turbo-XR650R-w-USD-forks-conversion-for-now/page4

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

what do u think of the bt-016 tyres and are the just bt-016 or are they bt-016 PRO? i think i will go with the S20 now after some research.

so whats left now just sorting out the EFI? and then ready to rumble?? :jawdrop::ride::thumbsup:

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