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Peg balance drill...

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I have been spending a lot of time doing peg balance drills lately, getting more and more aggressive with the brake and throttle. The idea is to balance your body against acceleration (body way forward) and deceleration/braking (body back) while you concentrate on having absolute minimal hand pressure fore and aft on the bars. You have to really anticipate the change from accel to decel, and vice versa.

Braking is no issue...but under strong acceleration, I am finding I have to get crazy far out over the bars to truly balance against the acceleration. I am talking Justin Barcia mach 9 wanna be out over the front of the bike....my waist on thebar pad..low...back straight...my elbows are forward of the bars. Is it proper to really get that aggressive on your body positioning forward under hard acceleration?

I ride a 06 YZ250F that has been kitted out to 315 cc (RPM Ice Cube). The jetting is dialed...and the throttle response hits like a shotgun...

I am also wondering if my suspension needs work. The bike has been sitting in a garage for 3.5 years. Clean...dry...suspension is in great shape...but could I have lost pressure i the shock? Might this make the back sit low...and the nose come up easy? I have to admit...I have not checked the sag...

Edited by Blutarsky

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Maybe the bike has too much snap, too much initial punch, so its just lifting the front wheel off the ground because you're just cranking the throttle and not modulating it properly. It could also be a wrong needle jet setting, causing it to have too much punch. The last thing you want is a punch at mid RPM like coming out of a corner. You want smooth power and like a 2 stroke, having a little bit of a power boost at high RPM isn't bad. Perhaps, this new motor also delivers so much more torque that you might be able to keep it in a higher gear and like a 450, torque it around the track. If you ride it like a 250, (up on the higher bit of the RPM range) it might respond with too much power.

Also, it wouldn't be a soft rear end causing any problem, it would be a STIFF rear end. Softer rear end would absorb when on the throttle (which is what it's suppose to do) and a harder rear end would't absorb, so the front would come right off the ground. A well setup bike will not want to wheely badly, just slightly.

My guess is, its a compound issue; shock oil is for sure toast, no questions asked, so it might be making the rear a bit on the stiff side. Compounded with the new motor and some compensation by the rider needed to manage the power output.

I've ridden some powerful bikes, 525's and stuff, I've never needed to be over the bars THAT much... Also, I tend to pinch the bike more then relying just on my pegs.

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19745_windham3.jpg

^ He's over the bars that far :bonk:

but generally you're going to have to hold on a little bit with your hands if you're WFO. Otherwise pros would never get armpump, or blisters

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The bike is 'only' a 315 four stroke...so it still does not compare to a 450...but I did change the needle setting when I was dialing the jetting, and even at the slightest crack of the throttle...it hits hard. Some others riders...MUCH better than myself, rode the bike...and noted that the hit of the throttle was unusual...and a little unnerving. I guess I need to learn to use the clutch properly to roll on the juice more smoothly.

As for getting out over the front of the bike...watch the Barcia VURB vid. At 1:04-1:05...he is WTO and WAY out over the front of the bike. That is what I feel like I have to do to really stay in true balance without pulling on the bars...or squeezing... Of course...I am going much slower...and over smoother terrain..etc...but the position is that extreme...

Keep in mind...this is just a drill I have been working on, to try and improve my riding natural unconscious body position. Just getting close to WTO on a modern MX bike is not really that easy...to do in true control. I think that having a really good balanced body position, while extreme in some cases, will make me a better rider than not being as dynamic on the bike...and trying to use strength to hold position.

I try to go back and forth from full power...then transition to hard braking...and back....and balance my body in a way that I could hold the grip with just a light finger tip touch. It is HARD. For instance...as you go from braking or even just throttle braking to throttle coming on...you have to actually anticipate with your body. You relax your body/legs while the bike is still under slight deceleration... to shift foward...then roll on the throttle at just the perfect time. If you roll on too soon, you can end having to muscle it to hold onto the bars...and if you roll on too late...you end up alsmost going over the bars... Once you get super far over the bars...you get stuck out there with no push from the pegs to balance your position. You almost fall forward...and can not get enough throttle due to your arm position.

I don't even do this on a track...just on a straight flat road or trail.... When I do this drill...I dont pinch the bike at all...because of the large shifts in position from front to back to front, etc. My theory is to build this natural body positioning balance into my nervous system...then worry about squeezing the bike. Get set in the right position...THEN use the knees to grip the bike.

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I did change the needle setting when I was dialing the jetting, and even at the slightest crack of the throttle...it hits hard. Some others riders...MUCH better than myself, rode the bike...and noted that the hit of the throttle was unusual...and a little unnerving. I guess I need to learn to use the clutch properly to roll on the juice more smoothly.

Yea, its probably running a bit lean in that needle range and because of that, its giving you a boost of power all of a sudden. That should be very easy to tune out, I'd richen it up a slight bit and see what happens. You shouldn't have to compensate with clutch because your fueling is wrong. :smirk:

As for getting out over the front of the bike...watch the Barcia VURB vid. At 1:04-1:05...he is WTO and WAY out over the front of the bike. That is what I feel like I have to do to really stay in true balance without pulling on the bars...or squeezing... Of course...I am going much slower...and over smoother terrain..etc...but the position is that extreme...

I get ya, but at the same time, its a pretty extreme situation. Barcia does ride over the front of his bike, where guys like Villopoto don't. It all depends on how you ride, its a "style" and what you feel comfortable with. I bet Ryan can't ride like Justin and visa versa.

Just getting close to WTO on a modern MX bike is not really that easy...to do in true control. I think that having a really good balanced body position, while extreme in some cases, will make me a better rider than not being as dynamic on the bike...and trying to use strength to hold position. I don't even do this on a track...just on a straight flat road or trail....

Very true, BUT just because you've built into your muscle memory how to do something in a closed, safe environment, doesn't mean you'll do it when you need it. I've built lots of things into my muscle memory that I literally forget to use when I'm on the track. I'll get into trouble and later think back about how I knew exactly how to get out of it, but didn't make the adjustment because I don't use that skill enough on the track. I've actually forgotten a lot of things that I learned, but just don't use. So using the skill in a practical situation is actually where you learn properly. This is why everyone says, seat time is the key to becoming a better rider. Seat time on the track, in the situations you will naturally run into is critical.

I try to go back and forth from full power...then transition to hard braking...and back....and balance my body in a way that I could hold the grip with just a light finger tip touch. It is HARD. For instance...as you go from braking or even just throttle braking to throttle coming on...you have to actually anticipate with your body. You relax your body/legs while the bike is still under slight deceleration... to shift foward...then roll on the throttle at just the perfect time. If you roll on too soon, you can end having to muscle it to hold onto the bars...and if you roll on too late...you end up alsmost going over the bars... Once you get super far over the bars...you get stuck out there with no push from the pegs to balance your position. You almost fall forward...and can not get enough throttle due to your arm position.

These are good skills to practice for sure, no doubt. :bonk:

Though I think your over-thinking things just a bit... :banana:

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The drill you are talking about is taught by Shane Watts to help maximize braking and acceleration. Probably other isntructors, too. A lot of people don't get their head far enough over the bars.

So, practice it.

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The drill you are talking about is taught by Shane Watts to help maximize braking and acceleration. Probably other isntructors, too. A lot of people don't get their head far enough over the bars.

Ohh yea, its widly taught in the off-road community because you never know what surface you'll run into. I've got Shane's DVD's as well and he teaches this skill on grass, which is something you won't run into on a motocross track. :bonk:

Not sayin' its a bad skill, just sayin' if you know how to ride, your body will adapt, it doesn't take specific training practice to get it down.

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It can't hurt to try to improve your balance by using the drill you're referencing.

However, if you're wondering why you're body positioning seems unnatural and and over exaggerated it is because it is both of those things.

Gripping the bike with you're legs is what allows you to not hold the bars tightly during hard acceleration or braking. You're going to naturally not require as much counter-weight aka forward Herman Monster Lurching to stay balanced.

P.S. The last line in the previous post is the type of product produced from ignorance.

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The last line in the previous post is the type of product produced from ignorance.

I disagree, just because I don't have decades of riding experience, doesn't mean I don't understand how to train properly. I don't think off-track drills hold a candle to actually riding, putting in good, quality seat time on-track. I've seen it time and time again, you can be proficient at a skill when its taken out of context, but when you put that skill into context, not be able to perform.

What's the best way to train for motocross? Riding motocross!

Not going to the gym, not riding your bicycle, not riding in the back yard, but actually putting in the seat time where it belongs; on the track.

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I have not heard about these peg balancing drills yet, but I'm also fresh back new to the sport. Does anyone have a youtube link or similar that kind of shows these drills in action? That's the best way I learn them as I've been studying all types of form and what not for riding my raging 98 cr250r

To the OP, that raw snappy throttle response could always be deceiving and actually a symptom of lean jetting. I know you said you are dead on but some guys like to jet just barely outside of rich, because that overly snappy throttle can be counter productive for racing, and if it is lean obviously tear that motor up.

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(Originally by motoxhead)---

The last line in the previous post is the type of product produced from ignorance.

Not. I do not think you understand, before the standstick moving my bike midair was like trying to comb my hair in a double mirror reflection, my mind didn't know how to move the comb and it felt awkward....

This gadget teaches how to hold your bike in the air, takes tens of thousands of times to get the practice to know it 2nd nature. BTW could you tell me the fees and drama with 1000's of mx jumps? Most people, especial older ones... do not have parents to take them to track every week.

No offense, but it does work 100%

I think I mixed up his throttle hit with trying to get used to a neutral body position....:bonk:

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Not. I do not think you understand, before the standstick moving my bike midair was like trying to comb my hair in a double mirror reflection, my mind didn't know how to move the comb and it felt awkward....

This gadget teaches how to hold your bike in the air, takes tens of thousands of times to get the practice to know it 2nd nature. BTW could you tell me the fees and drama with 1000's of mx jumps? Most people, especial older ones... do not have parents to take them to track every week.

No offense, but it does work 100%

I think I mixed up his throttle hit with trying to get used to a neutral body position....:bonk:

Motoxhead wasn't talking about your post, he was talking about mine BTW.. :smirk:

Kool device, I'm kinda upset they don't have a video or something to show it working. I went on youtube and didn't find anything either. It think for beginners who don't know what its like to feel the front go down, its a kool device. I actually took a few bricks and raised my bike off the stand enough to rock it back and forward so a friend of mine could feel that sensation.

At the same time though, once you've learned what its like for the nose to dive down and correct it through body movements or visa versa, you still have no idea what its like to jump. Little jumps are one thing, but once you start banging out 80ft + jumps where you're airborne for a few seconds, that takes a lot more balls then skill. So on-track practice and repetition, trying it over and over again, are the only way's you'll be successful doing it. Plus a lot of people who know how to ride, forget the very basic jumping skills that a beginner won't understand; speed necessary to clear the jump but not over-jump, throttle control, preloading, and the sensory feeling of being in the air, which can freak some beginners out. Those can't be practiced on the ground with the engine off and to me those are far more important skills to have as most jumps automatically set you up for a perfect nose up/nose down situation without the rider having to do anything mid air.

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I have been spending a lot of time doing peg balance drills lately, getting more and more aggressive with the brake and throttle. The idea is to balance your body against acceleration (body way forward) and deceleration/braking (body back) while you concentrate on having absolute minimal hand pressure fore and aft on the bars. You have to really anticipate the change from accel to decel, and vice versa.

Braking is no issue...but under strong acceleration, I am finding I have to get crazy far out over the bars to truly balance against the acceleration. I am talking Justin Barcia mach 9 wanna be out over the front of the bike....my waist on thebar pad..low...back straight...my elbows are forward of the bars. Is it proper to really get that aggressive on your body positioning forward under hard acceleration?

I ride a 06 YZ250F that has been kitted out to 315 cc (RPM Ice Cube). The jetting is dialed...and the throttle response hits like a shotgun...

I am also wondering if my suspension needs work. The bike has been sitting in a garage for 3.5 years. Clean...dry...suspension is in great shape...but could I have lost pressure i the shock? Might this make the back sit low...and the nose come up easy? I have to admit...I have not checked the sag...

Your going in the rite direction. To answer your question about the acceleration part... Yes, you need to be that far out front, traction will dictate this. There are a lot of variables here but for your drill purposes, yes, get way out front.

To answer your question about the suspension... Yes, have it serviced. The additives do deteriorate over time but it is unlikely it is causing major issues in the drill you are performing.

As far as your sag goes... set it! Someone else mentioned that a soft shock or spring will not cause any issues... they are wrong. MX has a lot to do with weight transfer. If the rear suspension transfers too much weight or too much too fast, you may end up with too much traction too fast. (If that is possible) The point is get the suspension correct for you and at the least fresh oil.

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I disagree, just because I don't have decades of riding experience, doesn't mean I don't understand how to train properly. (you don't need to tell us how smart you are we will figure that out on our own)I don't think off-track drills hold a candle to actually riding, putting in good, quality seat time on-track. I've seen it time and time again, you can be proficient at a skill when its taken out of context, but when you put that skill into context, not be able to perform.(That's like saying... you don't need to learn the alphabet, just go read)

What's the best way to train for motocross? Riding motocross! (finally something we agree on)

If you don't think off-track drills hold a candle to actually riding that's fine, you can do it your way. I don't think everybody's brain works like yours. Most people need it explained in slow motion (like while sitting on the bike while it is on a stand) so they understand what to do at full speed.

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I've seen it time and time again, you can be proficient at a skill when its taken out of context, but when you put that skill into context, not be able to perform.

That's like saying... you don't need to learn the alphabet, just go read

How about this one; Train three things individually for me; braking, turning, throttle, do drills off-track for those. Then when you try to put all three together on-track with other riders buzzing around you, ruts to deal with, dirt that moves under your rear wheel, etc.. good luck being able to take a corner. Yes, eventually you will be able to put it together, but wouldn't it have been much better to learn those three things in the actual environment you planned on using them, instead of in the garage or the back yard?

I don't think everybody's brain works like yours. Most people need it explained in slow motion (like while sitting on the bike while it is on a stand) so they understand what to do at full speed.

I think everyone can benefit from watching stuff in slow motion, but in terms of the jumping tool above, I don't believe its that beneficial. Yes, if you don't know where your neutral position is, you've gotta learn that, but it only takes a few moments with the bike on the stand to figure it out. With jumping however, body position is only half the battle, the other half is training your brain to understand speed, to ignore things like the feeling of weightlessness and of course, being able to break-through the G forces. You can't learn those things in the garage sadly, those are only learned by actually physically jumping.

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How about this one; Train three things individually for me; braking, turning, throttle, do drills off-track for those. Then when you try to put all three together on-track with other riders buzzing around you, ruts to deal with, dirt that moves under your rear wheel, etc.. good luck being able to take a corner. Yes, eventually you will be able to put

Run this quote by any well known and regarded MX trainer you have heard of (Gary Semics visits this site) and You will find they disagree with your thought process, as would all the pro's if they think about it and give you an honest answer.

I'm not going to argue the fact that I am more than qualified to instruct because you don't know me, but I will say this... I have ridden and raced dirt bikes for more than 30 years. I have competed and won against some of the best at one point or another. I have taught many people to ride, including my wife and 4 children. Still to this day, after the bikes are all prepped for the next practice/race my 10 year old son and I will do static drills of all three you mentioned and more, in the garage with the bikes on the stands. That's how much I think one needs to learn to crawl before they run.

You seem like an intelligent enough guy to have a good head about you. With you just learning, I would think you would be more open minded about the process. The OP is trying to figure out the theory and practice it in a controlled manner before he sends his missile into orbit and tries to run at light speed and I commend him for it.

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Back on point: the OEM valving and suspension were set for a 38hp (approx) and 19 lb/ft of torque. During accel , this force makes the rear squat. That all changed when you upped the cc's to 300+. The larger engine is causing the rear to squat more, unless you changed the gearing drastically.

Set your sag and turn the HS rear adjuster in quite a bit . Test that and see if it helps.

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