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Question regarding mixing gear oil with oil lubricants

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Hi,

Does anyone use oil lubricants like Omega (something) or Prolong (electrically charged stuff which greatly improves lubrication) in the gear oil?

I am considering using Prolong, but am a bit unsure to whether or not my clutch will suffer? What do you guys think? I asked Prolong and they reckon 6 % (with clutch in mind) would do the job?

It's actually possible to empty the oil and still ride for a while without the gears suffering. Kind of impressing stuff.

-Espen

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I mixed some oils, like w 80 with w140 and had at one point a slipping clutch but I'm not sure if the oils were to blame 100% . The oil also makes sure that the temp in the clutch does not sky rock. Kind of a temp equalizer/ balancer. I like thicker oils as I believe that they won't piss through the crankseal that easy :bonk:

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Never thought of that before!

This Prolong (http://www.prolong.com/A_ET.html) thing is not actually an oil. I'm afraid the Prolong lubrication might be to good for the clutch. It consists of particles which connects and interacts withthe metal due to some magic (and if you drain the oil the lubrication still exists). Anyone tried this out before?

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I mixed some oils, like w 80 with w140 and had at one point a slipping clutch but I'm not sure if the oils were to blame 100% . The oil also makes sure that the temp in the clutch does not sky rock. Kind of a temp equalizer/ balancer. I like thicker oils as I believe that they won't piss through the crankseal that easy :bonk:

80w 90, or any other type of Hypoy gear oil will ruin your clutch!!! The best thing is to use oil intended for motorcycle gear boxes with wet clutches (identified with the "JASO MA" marking on the container and do not add ANYTHING to the oil.

Adding any type of additive to the tranny oil will cause the clutch to slip and require the friction plated be replaced. Most 2 stroke trannys are designed to work with 30wt oil. Anything heavier is just throwing power out the window. If you have a crank seal leaking oil from the tranny to the crankcase you need to replace the seal, not put in heavier oil.

Stick with motorcycle specific transmission oil from Maxima, Spectro, Bel Ray, Torco, Klotz, Amsoil, Silkolene, or Motul. Whatever you use, make sure it is JASO MA certified and nothing else.

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Ive heard you need an oil that is not labled 'energy conserving' or somethig like that. These have additives that are put there to reduce friction: not good for a clutch. My guess is this stuff falls in that catagory. Id be careful using something that bonds to parts without even being in the case anymore. Just my .02

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Stick with motorcycle specific transmission oil from Maxima, Spectro, Bel Ray, Torco, Klotz, Amsoil, Silkolene, or Motul. Whatever you use, make sure it is JASO MA certified and nothing else.

All oils except one you can't get over here, Motul does not sell gearbox oil on the island. I'd have to look for it in a City 300 km away and after 2 years of using W80/90 no clutch was damaged or rendered useless.

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80w 90, or any other type of Hypoy gear oil will ruin your clutch!!! The best thing is to use oil intended for motorcycle gear boxes with wet clutches (identified with the "JASO MA" marking on the container and do not add ANYTHING to the oil.

Adding any type of additive to the tranny oil will cause the clutch to slip and require the friction plated be replaced. Most 2 stroke trannys are designed to work with 30wt oil. Anything heavier is just throwing power out the window. If you have a crank seal leaking oil from the tranny to the crankcase you need to replace the seal, not put in heavier oil.

Stick with motorcycle specific transmission oil from Maxima, Spectro, Bel Ray, Torco, Klotz, Amsoil, Silkolene, or Motul. Whatever you use, make sure it is JASO MA certified and nothing else.

Gear oil is rated differently than engine oil. 80W gear oil is approximately equivalent to 25W engine oil.

Most any oil will work fine in your tranny. How often you change it is far more important than what you put in it.

I am not a fan of "mechanic in a can" additives.

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I dont think we should be talking about a product called "prolong"...... ever. What happens if it really is good stuff, but the wife finds the credit card billing statement? Would she really think it was an oil additive? Doubt it.

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I'll second sticking with JASO-MA.

It can get confusing, some oils that will work just fine (like SAE 10W-30 w/o energy conserving label) don't have the JASO-MA rating simply because the manufacturer didn't pay to put them thru the certification process.

Other oils, like Shell Rotella, are labeled "Energy Conserving", but ALSO carry a JASO-MA rating, meaning they are fine for wet clutches. It depends what additives are used to meet the energy conserving requirements.

I'm a big Rotella fan. Cheap, change it often.

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All oils except one you can't get over here, Motul does not sell gearbox oil on the island. I'd have to look for it in a City 300 km away and after 2 years of using W80/90 no clutch was damaged or rendered useless.

In that case just, use 4 stroke motor oil in the transmission. Or, another suitable substitute would be ATF (automatic transmission fluid). Doesn't really matter if it's Dexron, Mercon, Type F, as long as it's ok to use in an automobile automatic transmission.

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And why should I if I did not have one problem with the oil I use?

PDV SAE 80W90 and the price is @ USD 1.4 for 946 cm3 :bonk:

80W90 gear oil has extreme pressure additives that are not compatible with a wet clutch. The oil will 'poison' the friction plates and allow the clutch to slip excessively. The other reason is the transmission in your bike is designes to work with a much lighter viscosity oil than you are using. The clutch is dependant on oil circulating through small holes inside the clutch basket and an oil that is too thick will not flow freely though the clutch.

The combination of poor oil circulation and incompatable oil additives allowing the clutch to slip will generate excessive heat as well causing further damage to the clutch springs and steel plate warping.

Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) is a much better substitute oil than 80W90 or 80W140. ATF is intended to be compatable with wet clutches and also lubricating gear assemblies. An automatic tranny from an automobile has similar components to a motorcycle tranny with a wet clutch.

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Thanks for that info.

The pdvsa oil has almost nothing of additives, it is a oil made since 1950 so far I know. I did use ATF but is is the same not problem but th eprice is higher and they are harder to get. The oil as not done anything bad to my clutch in the last 2 years.

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80W90 gear oil has extreme pressure additives that are not compatible with a wet clutch. The oil will 'poison' the friction plates and allow the clutch to slip excessively. The other reason is the transmission in your bike is designes to work with a much lighter viscosity oil than you are using. The clutch is dependant on oil circulating through small holes inside the clutch basket and an oil that is too thick will not flow freely though the clutch.

The combination of poor oil circulation and incompatable oil additives allowing the clutch to slip will generate excessive heat as well causing further damage to the clutch springs and steel plate warping.

Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) is a much better substitute oil than 80W90 or 80W140. ATF is intended to be compatable with wet clutches and also lubricating gear assemblies. An automatic tranny from an automobile has similar components to a motorcycle tranny with a wet clutch.

Many 80W90 gear oils are "wet clutch" friendly, mostly for use in clutch-type limited slip differentials.

Also, 80W90 gear oil is rated differently than engine oil, and is actually very similar viscosity to 30W engine oil.

viscositychart.jpg

Still, I like to use something closer to recommended, but look for the JASO-MA rating, as it's the only one that really means anything to dirt bike wet clutches.

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The stuff that needs to be avoided is the API GL4 or GL5 types of oils intended for differentials and manual transmissions in trucks and older passenger cars. You are correct about the advertised viscosity variation between gear and crancase oils (cool graphic! Is that from a scanned image?). GL4 and GL5 gear oils really are too thick for a dirt bike transmission and are specifically identified as NOT being suitable for use in any of Yamaha's service and owners manuals for 2 stroke YZ's.

Most automobiles and pickups (U.S. made) with manual transmissions built in the last 20 years have gone away from traditional gear oils in favor of ATF. There are some API GL4 and GL5 oils suitable for use in limited slip axles and, of course additives for limited slip differentials, but these are to promote smooth slipping of the clutch packs and eliminate chattering when making tight turns.

There ARE some motorcycle manufacturers that do recommend ATF in their 2 stroke tranny's, one of them is GASGAS. GASGAS recomends GM Synchromesh transmission fluid for use in their trials bikes and offer Dexron III as an alternative if Synchromesh is not available.

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Other oils, like Shell Rotella, are labeled "Energy Conserving", but ALSO carry a JASO-MA rating....
I've been a long time Rotella user; long before it was JASO rated (which I didn't know :bonk:). Lots of people would wave their finger :banana: or roll their eyes :smirk: at you for using a non rated "automotive" oil in a dirt bike. It hasn't changed, but now that it is rated I guess it's OK :busted:

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I think I'll stir the pot a little, I haven't been in a good oil debate for a while...:bonk:

The Great Oil Debate

There's a lot of myths about oils that are or not suitable for our machines, and most of them have absolutely no factual basis.

"Don't use an energy Conserving oil or your clutch will slip."

"You must use a JASO MA rated oil in your engine or you'll cause premature failure and wear."

The myth about automotive oils making your clutch slip started when the Energy Conserving (EC) standard came into being. EC oils have much lower levels of zinc and phosphorous, because these additives can damage a catalytic converter. And the word moly automatically makes people think that the moly additive will cause buildup on the plates which will lead to slippage. But the truth is there is nothing wrong with oils that contain moly, and in fact many motorcycle-specific oils contain moly. I have yet to see any evidence to show that any so-called "friction-modified" (Energy Conserving, or EC) oil will cause any problems. In fact, all engine oils have friction modifiers of some sort in them. The Energy Conserving designation (EC) was devised to denote oils that met new emissions standards requiring lower levels of phosphorous. The EC standard is about emissions, not friction.

Since the standard requires a reduction in useful additives such as phosphorous and zinc, the manufacturers had to come up with replacements. One of the additives that the oil engineers can use to bring the lubrication properties back to the level that it was with the higher levels of phosphorus is molybdenum (moly).

The problem with the belief that the moly additive will make clutches slip is that oil companies don't use the form of moly that would cause this problem, Molybdenum Disulfide MoS2. That type of moly is typically used for the formulation of industrial gear lubes, chain lubes, and greases, not engine or transmission oils.

Engine oil formulators use Molybdenum DialkyldiThioCarbamate. This formulation of moly has been proven in both lab testing and actual use to not cause clutch problems at any level you are ever going to find in an oil bottle.

The funny thing is, many people will start beating the "moto-specific-oil" drum, and try to tell you that if you don't use motorcycle oil, your clutch will slip. But in fact, many JASO MA rated (certified for use in a wet-clutch environment) moto-specific oils contain levels of moly that are much higher than any EC-rated automotive oil. So if it's bad in an automotive oil, why then is it perfectly acceptable in a motorcycle oil?

Even the JASO MA rating is itself a scam in my opinion. All it means is that an oil has been submitted for certification as to it's ability to operate in a wet clutch environment. That does not, however, mean that a non- JASO MA oil will not perform equally well in the same wet-clutch environment. Many oils are simply not submitted for this certification, beca7use the manufacturers are not specifically targeting the motorcycle market, so they do not wish to invest the time and money required to obtain that certification. And in fact, there are more than a few motorcycle specific oils on the market that do not have the JASO MA certification.

Most any oil will be acceptable in your tranny, as long as it is changed at reasonable intervals. The problem is, what would be considered a reasonable interval for any other engine is not a reasonable interval for our bikes. The real enemy of oil in our trannies is in contamination from the clutch, and viscosity-shear from the gear teeth. The only solution for those problems is frequent oil changes. In most cases, choosing an oil that your budget allows you to change frequently is better than choosing a much more expensive oil that you aren't willing to change as often because of the high cost.

So called "diesel" oils are nothing more than automotive oils with a more robust additive package, especially higher detergent levels. Some of the best performing oils that you can find for our trannies are diesel oils such as Delo and Rotella T. And some of those high-dollar "boutique" moto-specific oils will shear out of viscosity faster than a standard off-the-shelf auto oil. Most oils will shear out of viscosity in our transmissions, under race conditions, in as little as 4 hours. If that doesn't convince you of the need for frequent changes, then nothing will.

I Use ATF type F in my two-stroke trannies. It's an excellent choice for a wet clutch environment, it has better thermal stability and shear resistance than most engine oils. It's also very cheap at $1.29 a quart, so I change it after every ride. You can also use gear oil, or any good engine oil. How often you change it is more important than what you put in it.

I use the ATF in my KX250. For my YZ250F, I use Shell Rotella 10W40. I change it every 3-4 hours.

Of course, there will always be the nay-sayers that will swear that you are leading your machine to an early death if you don't run those so-called "moto-specific" JASO MA oils, or that you are going to do damage to your clutch. And that's just such a crock. There are many motorcycle oils that do not have the JASO MA rating, as well as many automotive oils that meet or exceed the same standards but simply haven't been submitted for certification because they aren't targeted at the motorcycle market. But, since so many dealers (that make a huge profit on oil sales) try to convince riders that they are doing their machines a disservice by not using these products, and the myth is perpetuated on sites such as this, the debate goes on and on...and it will probably never be resolved. But if running that high-dollar moto-specific oil makes you feel better, then by all means, use it, there's something to be said for the feel-good factor, after all.

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Yamaha, in their newer owners manuals specifically advise against using 'industrial' or anything other than motorcycle specific oils in their machines and have warnings about voiding the warranty by doing so.

The newer classes of oils for autos and trucks, even Chokeys much vaunted Rotella, fall victim to mandatory EPA requirements limiting the amount of Phosphorous, Zink, and Sulphur based additives in oils to eliminate the possibility of contaminating DPF's (diesel particulate filters), catalytic converters, and O2 sensors. These Phosphorous, Zink, and Sulphur based compounds form the backbone of the anti-wear additive packages in motor oils and their EPA mandated removal only hinders their performance and their ability to protect an engine from wear.

The JASO standard MA MA2 and MB were created to address these issues created by the EPA because of the unique operational environment of motorcycles and ATV's. JASO certified oils have higher levels of Phosphorous, Zink, and Sulphur bearing additives. Chokeys argument is irrelevant here.

That being said, I only have two things to say about this topic;

Changing the oil regularly, even if it's not what's recomended by the manufacturer is better than not changing it at all.

And, by using oil specifically not recomended by the manufacturer, you have no grievance if a dealer refuses to honor your warranty. The fault is entirely your own.

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