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Now I'm Really P!$$ed Off!!

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Alright as you can tell I am pissed and I have a right to be because esterday I crashed AGAIN second time in like what 3 rides. something like that. Anyway I am here to ask a question and here it is, understand what i am trying to say as well so we dont have confusion, When you measure sag do you measure in the arc of the swingarm? as in holding a string end at the pivot, then running the other end of the string to the center of the axle and then taking this end and running it under the fender until it touches. In other words you are following the path of the swingarm as it is going up until it touches something, if it was not obstructed of course. I saw that this is how the factory connection factory riders do theirs and was wondering if this was the actual way of measuring the 4" that is required for race sag. because if you measure straight up to the rear fender then you are measuring a completely random line of action that has nothing to do with the travel of the bike. I think this is the reason I crashed so if a pro could chime in that would be awesome.

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I'm not a pro, but the arc you mentioned is probably worth a couple millimeters.

4" sag is too much. You need 3 3/4" or 100mm.

I doubt that's why you wrecked.

Your rebound seems to be off.

This was posted by GoonSquadRMZ450

HANDLING PROBLEMS

Jarring => harsh ride in the handlebars on relatively small but sharp bumps

Decrease compression and rebound so wheel comes up and goes down faster

Try a fork spring with a lower spring rate for a softer ride

Packing => harsh ride in handlebars on larger bumps

Increase compression in the forks to limit the compression

Decrease rebound to help the wheel return more quickly

Try stiffer fork springs

Headshake => front wheel oscillates side to side, especially in soft stuff

Move forks lower in triple clamps to increase rake and straight-line stability

Decrease rebound in forks so wheel rolls over rather than ploughs into ground

Try stiffer front springs and softer rear spring to move center of gravity rearward

Over- steers => bike turns too quickly, goes inside the turn, front wheel knifes

Move forks lower in the triple clamps to increase rake, slow down turning

Decrease rebound on both forks to slow down the turning

Install stiffer fork spring so wheel won’t sink in and bite too much

Under-steers => bike turns too slowly, drifts wide -- front wheel pushes, washes out

Move forks higher in triple clamps to decrease rake and speed up turning

Increase rebound on both forks to increase “cone effect” and speed up turning

Bleed air pressure in both forks to stop the front wheel from pushing

Try softer fork springs so wheel bites rather than pushes the ground

Kick-up => rear wheel hops straight up, seat pops you in the butt

Increase rebound to slow down wheel’s return after hitting a bump

Swapping => rear wheel hops side to side in hard to loamy whoops

Increase compression, and/or decrease rebound to eliminate packing

Braking Hop => rear wheel hops excessively when braking for bumps or a corner

Decrease shock’s rebound to help wheel follow the bumps more quickly

Acceleration Hop => rear wheel hops badly on rough ground during acceleration

Decrease rebound to help wheel follow the bumps more quickly

If that doesn’t lessen the kick-up, decrease the shock’s compression

Acceleration Spin => the rear wheel loses traction under heavy acceleration

Increase rebound to improve rear wheel “squat”

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this is helpful. and since I am here I will ask a question I asked before because I still fuzzy about it, lets say you have the rebound clicker all the way in, does this increase the rebound speed? If the rebound clicker is all the way out does it slow it down? I think it does, but yesterday we went suspension testing hence i crashed and my dad was confusing the hell out of me with this and at one point I had it all straight then he screwed me up again...

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4" is about 102mm, it's fine. You could go even more than that depending on the bike you ride.

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I owned the 08 and 10 KX 450 and ran 102-105mm with the tubes about 8mm up +or- 2mm. 4" of sag certaily didn't make you crash. What happened exactly?

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In faster and out is slower

Wrong. The screws closes off an orfice for oil passage. screwing them "in" restricts oil flow more and will slow the action down. Rebound slower, compress slower.

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well testing your shock in the whoops while messing with the shock rebound isnt smart in case you are wondering. I swapped out hard broke helmet, my brain, my sense of ability, and am questioning my position as of why I do this sport because of the recent events. Ive done a lot of stuff in this sport, and coming up short is one and that didnt rattle me, but lately I have to ask why. this is on a KDX fyi, but even then I have the forks way down, not stockers, and it was still everywhere, usually whoops are my strong point but I gotta say now I am really scared of them. BTW, on my KXF I run 22s and link and I have the triples dropped as far as they go and it still handles good, but my thing is, I have to have a stable bike. Its just how I like my setup, I hate bikes that turn well as dumb and retarded as that sounds. Anyway I have to stay on topic here, also on a side note my dad did have the thing revalved when he did the gold valve on the shock, and ever since then it has been terrible whereas before it was great I loved the shock. So I guess we have to revalve because I want the benefits of the gold valve with the valving I had before.

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If you screw the rebound all the way in. Push down on the bike real hard and it will return very slow if at all. Screw the rebound ALL the way OUT and it will return fast.

Turn your High Speed Dampening out Until your bike bottoms on the hardest hit of the track and turn in from there until you like what you feel. Start at 14 clicks out of your low speed Dampening. Click in if you want more dampening and out if you want less of a hit.

Have someone hold the bike up for you as you jump up and down on it. Make sure that the front and back go up and down together in a rhythm as you stand over the pegs. They should both return at the same time and you can then adjust from there.

When was the last time you had that shock serviced? Could it have a bunch of air in it? We service ours about every 20 to 25 hours.

A 1/4 turn on your shock spring can make allot of difference when you are setting up your bike. Faster tracks my kid likes 98mm because the bike corners better. Sand and loam tracks he likes as much as 102mm with the fork return set faster.

Have you adjusted your triple clamps at all? We start like this. Set Rear Sag then Triple Clamps to get our Fork Sag. All Clickers to 12 Dampening and 10 Rebound with High Speed Screw out 1.5 turns.

Once our sag is set we go to the High Speed Rebound and then to Rebound Clickers. After that we do our Dampening on our Fork and Shock. Once this is done we return to our Triple Clamps for cornering and then fine tune the sag (rear spring).

This is what works for us and there is a reason why the suspension classes cost ya top dollar and why Bones at PC makes the big bucks.

What bike is this? What part of a track are you NOT staying on the bike?

Edited by 95843

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well testing your shock in the whoops while messing with the shock rebound isnt smart in case you are wondering. I swapped out hard broke helmet, my brain, my sense of ability, and am questioning my position as of why I do this sport because of the recent events. Ive done a lot of stuff in this sport, and coming up short is one and that didnt rattle me, but lately I have to ask why. this is on a KDX fyi, but even then I have the forks way down, not stockers, and it was still everywhere, usually whoops are my strong point but I gotta say now I am really scared of them. BTW, on my KXF I run 22s and link and I have the triples dropped as far as they go and it still handles good, but my thing is, I have to have a stable bike. Its just how I like my setup, I hate bikes that turn well as dumb and retarded as that sounds. Anyway I have to stay on topic here, also on a side note my dad did have the thing revalved when he did the gold valve on the shock, and ever since then it has been terrible whereas before it was great I loved the shock. So I guess we have to revalve because I want the benefits of the gold valve with the valving I had before.

Auh, If you have the Triple Clamps all the way down. The rear of your bike must be awefull free? Do you ride over your rear tire most of the time? Does the bike want to dive into the ground going into the apex of a turn?

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if its terrible since the revalve then you need to determine if it's lacking compression or rebound ( I suspect rebound)

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Man my buddy bought a brand new 11' crf at the dealer. He started riding it of course, and the bike would nose down on every single jump big or small. It got so bad, he almost sold it and quit and stuck with the "im too old for this". Turns out some douchebag strolled into the dealership and turned his rebound basically all the way in, so leaving the lip it shot up, thus throwing him forward. In a way, the rear shock is everything in the jumping dept. Too much and you nose down, too little and you cowboy (nose up) but at least you have a point of reference, as in you HAD the shock how you wanted it. Revalve didn't work and sucks, so go back to what you know works and then hone in on it. Mentally you need to just understand your bike is out of whack, so just forget about it if you can. Get back to it when you get the shock done and go from there!

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Man my buddy bought a brand new 11' crf at the dealer. He started riding it of course, and the bike would nose down on every single jump big or small. It got so bad, he almost sold it and quit and stuck with the "im too old for this". Turns out some douchebag strolled into the dealership and turned his rebound basically all the way in, so leaving the lip it shot up, thus throwing him forward. In a way, the rear shock is everything in the jumping dept. Too much and you nose down, too little and you cowboy (nose up) but at least you have a point of reference, as in you HAD the shock how you wanted it. Revalve didn't work and sucks, so go back to what you know works and then hone in on it. Mentally you need to just understand your bike is out of whack, so just forget about it if you can. Get back to it when you get the shock done and go from there!
In your case Mr Black CR you have an easy diagnosis to fix your bike when it is acting up and making you crash. You just get a priest and some holy water.

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HOLD ONE A SECOND I CAUSED SOME ACCIDENTAL CONFUSION. The bike this forum is about is a modern KDX, the other bike mentioned above is fine(KXF)...

You are right, I need to determine the type of revalve I need, but here is my judge, the stock valving was great maybe not perfect but damn close, so with addition of a gold valve and a revalve from the local guy my dad USED to use, the job was a blowjob. If I send it off to either racetech of FC and tell them about the stocking valving vs. this valving+valve, then I figure they could push their heads together and make the difference between the two. I want the benefits of a Goldvalve but I want my original valving feel back. Why many dont use the Goldvalve is because your tuning becomes more sensitive but the end result can be great. This is my second bike with the gold valve on the shock and both were done by the same guy. The first one is good, but this one is terrible.

I like my setup as follows, little damping on front end with a bit firmer springs, and a rear end with lots of damping and the proper or next softest spring, usually the proper one though.

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In your case Mr Black CR you have an easy diagnosis to fix your bike when it is acting up and making you crash. You just get a priest and some holy water.

Hahaha my bike is a demon, love it! That's what it feels like sometimes when I catch a bad one. Watch crashes from 90's SX on youtube, and you can see some good blows. Hell, we're ab to head to track to tame the gorilla right now!

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Have you tried talking with the guy who installed the Gold Valves? He should be able to easily adjust it to make you happy with it.

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we have since figured out that the guy just doesnt get the type of work we want done, done. We have never been let down by FC or dicks so far, so we have used them a lot more as of recently because of their great work.

Also the local guy just doesnt have the know how and enough experience with linkages (hes a older KTM guy), and we have noticed that he does good KTM work, but when it comes to links and non-WP suspension he hasnt been able to get the results we want. We have enough bikes that while the front end is off one we can just ride another for the meanwhile.

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Suspension guys usually try to make bikes that handle well with standard geometry settings. They also usually only know WHAT they know and no more. So if you have gold valves, I think the best corse of action is to have the manufacturer of those valves (race tech) install them for ya. They will know what shim stack to use because using the stock shim stack does not work correctly and the documentation can be fuzzy.

I've worked with FC on my bike and nobody has ever told me any alternative method of measuring sag then between the axle and the fender somewhere. In fact, most of the sag tools have to be used in that method, they arn't versatile enough to do anything else. I think the confusion here is preload, you need to measure preload and that is done by measuring the spring unloaded and then measuring the spring loaded by the preload ring and determining two things, how many mm of preload is on the spring and how long the spring is whilst under preload. The manufacturer of the shock will specify the optimal preload for their given shock, usually that data is put in the manual of the bike. Not to say that manuals are accurate, but FC will have the accurate numbers for sure and its an important number to have. You can "fake" sag numbers if you mess with the preload enough, but still have the wrong spring. Measuring the preload and getting it within the specified range will help insure you have the right spring.

Your sag numbers for motocross should be; (static) 40mm +/- 2 and (loaded) 105 +/- 5. Thats what FC will tell you and most tuners will agree, on a linked MX bike, those are the numbers to work with. Also, buy a sag tool, measure in mm so you can be more accurate.

I think you're pretty confused and thats confusing the problem. You really need to be straight-forward with your problem by stating; you swap out in the whoops and you recently did XYZ to the suspension. Telling us the bike, the year, how many times you've been through the suspension and if its ever worked before, those are important first things to discuss in an opening thread. Everyone has crashed multiple times from suspension woes, it happens and guess what, you learn from the mistakes, listen to the professionals on how to setup your bike and move on. Telling the guys at FC that you like your bike setup totally whacky geometry wise, isn't going to resolve any problems. Going back to grass roots, setting everything back to stock geometry and putting on good new fresh suspension, will help diagnose problems. Once the problems are resolved you can then go back to messing with the geometry and getting it back to your "comfort" level.

Finally, sometimes if a bike is setup well and predictable, you need to just go along with it and correct your riding style to work with that suspension. Its taken me a great deal of time to get use to the FC stuff I got on my KTM, its very different, very snappy front end much stiffer then what I'm use to. But it works so well, its so predictable in every sense of the word and to me, predictability is the key.

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