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Is Honda going to build a 2 stroke again?

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Is Honda going to build a 2 stroke again?

I was out at the track watching my kids do thier voodoo and the owner told me that he heard Honda was going to build 2 Strokes again.

Can anyone out there give validity to this?

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A CR250X would sell like crazy, if they priced it in the KTM 2T off-road ballpark. I don't see much motivation for them to build a motocross 2T.

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With the "green" kick Honda is on these days, I doubt they will. Everyone knows a 2 stroke could be made to run as clean as the current 4 strokes; but, Honda doesn't seem to want to make the investment. Guess I'll just keep rebuilding my CR500s.

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They were really reluctant to get into the two stroke thing back in the 70's with the elsinore. I read a nice article about it somewhere. The owner of the company back then hated two strokes but had no choice if they wanted to be competitive. Now that they are out of the 2-stroke game it would probably take a similar situation for them to get back into the game. They make lots of money of parts for rebuilds anyways, why would they want to change that? If any wants a 2-stroke trail bike they get a ktm. I mean when I think of honda I think of 4-stroke even though they made the CR for 30some yrs.

If you want a 2-stroke honda get a CR500af :smirk: :This elsinore theme is awesome. The old honda logo is just pimp and should help you stay in the air a little longer. :bonk:

right2.jpg

Edited by 79yamdt
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Honda hates 2-strokes. Always have. Their founder guy hated them. Said they were only for yard equipment and that four-strokes were the suitable engines. Japenese are real big on traditions and honoring the past so they've sort of kept that mindset. There have been several racing ventures where they spent a fortune to build ubercomplex bikes with super exotic engines to try and compete with the 2 strokes with their beloved four strokes. Their influence over the sport is probably a large part of why things are they way they are now in the racing series

Edited by Oic0
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With the "green" kick Honda is on these days, I doubt they will. Everyone knows a 2 stroke could be made to run as clean as the current 4 strokes; but, Honda doesn't seem to want to make the investment. Guess I'll just keep rebuilding my CR500s.

Not everyone knows that they can do that, I do know that, as designed a 2t has to burn oil/gas mix to lube it's inards, They would have to redesign the present engines, to an engine similar in design to a Detroit deisel, with DI, crankcase oil, and blower or turbo to scavenge & charge the cylinder. So if you will fill me in on how the bike mfg's can do it, as clean as a 4t, please fill me in. Untill then I hope they just make 2t's for youth bikes, & CHAINSAWS.

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The huge emerging markets of china, india etc, are slowly phasing out two cycles which there are millions, Smog is unbelievable in their city's. The new motor of choice is 4 stroke 150-200cc Japanese clone motors. They power everything now, even the 3 wheeled trucks that pull a trailer full of your tv and computers to port 10mph down the highways. 1/2 the stuff in your house was probably drug around with a honda clone motor, LOL We are the only ones that could afford a DI twocycle, if they thought they could sell enough they would build them. But it's a risk, because our flaky epa laws could kill it at any time, one reason they pulled back in the 1st place. Smaller manufactures aren'r risking much because they don't gear up to stamp out 10000 units at a time like the big company's. I'd expect one the euro's to be the 1st DI bikes.

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Not everyone knows that they can do that, I do know that, as designed a 2t has to burn oil/gas mix to lube it's inards, They would have to redesign the present engines, to an engine similar in design to a Detroit deisel, with DI, crankcase oil, and blower or turbo to scavenge & charge the cylinder. So if you will fill me in on how the bike mfg's can do it, as clean as a 4t, please fill me in. Untill then I hope they just make 2t's for youth bikes, & CHAINSAWS.

I think evinrude has already done it with their e-tech engines. I remember them saying they burn cleaner than 4 stroke outboards. They use the technology in their smaller engines, not just the big v4s. I'm sure the technology they used could be applied to a bike.

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Not everyone knows that they can do that, I do know that, as designed a 2t has to burn oil/gas mix to lube it's inards, They would have to redesign the present engines, to an engine similar in design to a Detroit deisel, with DI, crankcase oil, and blower or turbo to scavenge & charge the cylinder. So if you will fill me in on how the bike mfg's can do it, as clean as a 4t, please fill me in. Untill then I hope they just make 2t's for youth bikes, & CHAINSAWS.

Uh, you kind of answered your own question. Two stroke motorcycles are on the edge of an evolution (revolution?). DI is the answer as 79yamdt alluded to. DI will reduce fuel consumption somewhat and emissions significantly as has already been proven. There have been many companies currently developing 2t DI technology so it is just a matter of time before one is brought to market. The Ossa appears to be the only company actually planning to market a DI 2t at this time but I haven't heard if it has actually hit the market yet. They plan three models all based around a 280cc DI 2t engine. Anyways, if not Ossa, my money is on KTM to be the first in a few years. I'm sure the only thing stopping them now is the cost.

BTW, here is a link to the three Ossa models:

http://www.ossamotor....php?idMoto=338

http://www.ossamotor....php?idMoto=337

http://www.ossamotor....php?idMoto=339

As for Honda making another 2t? I don't think that will ever happen again unless somehow they are forced to.

Edited by SS109
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Not everyone knows that they can do that, I do know that, as designed a 2t has to burn oil/gas mix to lube it's inards, They would have to redesign the present engines, to an engine similar in design to a Detroit deisel, with DI, crankcase oil, and blower or turbo to scavenge & charge the cylinder. So if you will fill me in on how the bike mfg's can do it, as clean as a 4t, please fill me in. Untill then I hope they just make 2t's for youth bikes, & CHAINSAWS.

I never said there wouldn't have to be a redesign of current engines. The technology is there, but, as I said, Honda isn't going to make the investment.

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I think evinrude has already done it with their e-tech engines. I remember them saying they burn cleaner than 4 stroke outboards. They use the technology in their smaller engines, not just the big v4s. I'm sure the technology they used could be applied to a bike.

I just went through all the video's and info I could find on the e-tec 2t's, It has to be a throttle body injection system they are using, which means they still burn oil with gas, They also say no smoke, and the injector computers are doing 8 million calculations per second, for load etc. So they might clean it up enough for bikes, but with the design I don't see it being cleaner than 4t's, and I couldn't find anything that says that, However it is a step in the right direction for 2t engines.

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I just went through all the video's and info I could find on the e-tec 2t's, It has to be a throttle body injection system they are using, which means they still burn oil with gas, They also say no smoke, and the injector computers are doing 8 million calculations per second, for load etc. So they might clean it up enough for bikes, but with the design I don't see it being cleaner than 4t's, and I couldn't find anything that says that, However it is a step in the right direction for 2t engines.

It says they are cleaner and CO output is significantly lower than 4t especially at idle. I'd like to see what hydrocarbon emissions are like for that engine, since that is the big offender for 2t. I see it says the other types of emissions are comparable or less than their 4t counterparts.

Edit:

I found a graph of the info I wanted. Scroll to page 10.

http://continuouswav...E44-1_e-tec.pdf

Looks like the technology is here. And it doesn't seem all that complicated, throw direct injection on a two stroke and your most of the way there.

Mercury also makes a similar engine, the optimax, in addition to their 4-stroke line up. These engines don't even smoke on start up in normal conditions. I wish the graph hand DI 4 strokes because they would probably be lower yet. I'm not sure what regular DI refers to. The decrease in emissions is pretty amazing though. You can still see the hydrocarbon levels are a little higher on the 2t vs the 4t but they are so close. Hydrocarbons come from unburnt fuel so these engines should consume significantly less gas than traditional 2t.

Edited by 79yamdt

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Not everyone knows that they can do that, I do know that, as designed a 2t has to burn oil/gas mix to lube it's inards, They would have to redesign the present engines, to an engine similar in design to a Detroit deisel, with DI, crankcase oil, and blower or turbo to scavenge & charge the cylinder. So if you will fill me in on how the bike mfg's can do it, as clean as a 4t, please fill me in. Untill then I hope they just make 2t's for youth bikes, & CHAINSAWS.

The DI two stroke engines would be the same configuration as current models, save for a fuel injector in the head and lower end oil injection. Direct injection on both two and four strokes enables complete fuel combustion, whereas carbs or port injection lets a lot of unburnt fuel out the exhaust. With DI, one can run as clean as the other.

Honda wont be bringing their smokers back anytime soon.

Edited by uuhhhh

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The most promising DI systems I have seen do away with the fuel carrying lubrication to the crank and bearings. They have a wet sump like most traditional 4t engines do. Whichever way someone goes with DI, yes, the technology is out there to make it happen. I believe the one major factor that stops it is cost. Companies like Orbital, Athena, and others are constantly developping it. There really is a lot of promising news out there on how good DI is working on 2t engines if you want to find it. A good place to keep up on what is happening with the develop of the DI 2t is http://twostrokemotocross.com/ There are quite a few articles talking about DI and they always link up to any new news stories that concern the 2t engine.

BTW, here is some informative info concerning a DI 2t engine with test data. In '02 Colorado State proved in the Clean Snowmobile Challenge that a 2t could put out comparitive hydrocarbons and significantly less CO2. http://www.news.colo...du/Release/2153 Full results, with test data, from the competition are available here in this .pdf: http://www.google.co...topGVilkd7mXvyA

For owners of older 2t's, well, it's not DI but there are even aftermarket FI systems available for retrofit. These systems help reduce emissions, fuel consumption, and the need to rejet your bike for changing riding conditions. Still pricey at this time, unfortunately.

Now, don't bury your head in the sand you 4t luddites! Read up and embrace the horror that you will face in the DI 2t! (this last part was a joke in case you didn't get it!) :smirk:

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As much as i love 2 stroke MC, mark my words Zero type bikes will be the future of motorcycle evolution. Daddy whats a four stroke? Well little Johnny, when i was your age :bonk::lol::smirk:

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Chrysler already experimented with wet-sump, forced-induction two-strokes. As in, intake ports in the cylinder with exhaust valves in the head. NOx emissions were too high.

Edited by Lead Head

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Dont count them out, rumours have it Honda Europe have muttered about a big come back into motorsports over the next 3-5 years, formula one, moto GP (i know they are currently running, but bigger budgets etc), and possibly the development of 2 stroke mx bikes again. Look at the Honda HP2, and the newer developments since then. They could jump straight back on the band wagon, a CR144, a CR250 or 300 with off road models would be great, and they would sell.

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