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xr200 output shaft endfloat

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I'm having trouble with excessive end float on the output shaft of my XR200 gearbox, about 0.200". The bearings are fine but the shafts float. It's causing the gearbox to "slip" in third gear.

The one manual I have gives no instruction on setting the end floats or clearances of any of the gearbox shafts.

Can anyone recommend a manual that will give this info

Thanks in advance

Brent

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If you have that much end play something is wrong such as............. wrong parts used, parts missing, one of the counter shaft bearings has spun and worn deeper into the case. Better do some checking and figure out which it is.

Old School Al

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Thanks guys but I need the endfloat info to try and find out where the problem is.

Chuck I've got that diagram and everything is there, thanks

The motor is of unknown origin and was in bits when I got it. It ran fine for a year or so but a friend borrowed the bike and returned it with a stick jammed in beside the chain roller under the swingarm (it's in a 1990KTM frame). The chain roller was pushed out about 2mm and thee was a nasty noise on overrun. I fixed the roller but the damage has been done.

Ideally I'd like to know the end float of the two shafts and shhift drum and the assembled length of the gearsets on their shafts. THe only way to find out what is wrong is to find out what is right first.

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If it is jumping out of gear there are problems that may or may not be caused by axial play. There is a small amount of axial play but I don't have a hard number for you to use. The two valve motors (XR and varients) have had changes thru the years to the cases, counter shaft, gear ratios, and kicker gears. Not all parts fit all cases. One member had a damaged case and tried using an early case half and couldn't get the cases to close on the gear box. In 86 Honda changed the counter shaft to move the sprocket out board about 0.2".

First issue is to ID the motor:

Early motors are painted black inside and out.

The left center case (by the oil drain) has the engine serial number, the first four characters are the model code. The numbers under is the serial number.

Two valve Model codes

MD02 XL185S B-D (USA / Kanada)

MD06 XL200R D-E

MD09 TLR 200 D-H

MD10 XL200 FMD (Neuseeland)

ME02 XR185 Z / XR 200 B-E 79-84

ME04 XR200R B-D 81-83

ME05 XR200R E-J + L-P (84-88,90-93 to #5705049)

ME05 XR200R R-2 (94-02 #5705049 and on)

TB01 ATC185 A / S B-D

TB05 ATC200 B-D /E C-D / X D-H /S E-G /M E-F /ES E-F

TD05 ATC200E C-E /ES E-F /X D-H

TD05 ATC200E C-E /ES E-F /X D-H

TE03 TRX200E /SX F-J

TE17 TRX200 L-M Fourtrax / D M-P Fourtrax

To identify the model year, Honda has added some logic to their model names. The last character refers to the year, also tenth character in the VIN.

Here is the list:

Z = 1979

A = 1980

B = 1981

C = 1982

D = 1983

E = 1984

F = 1985

G = 1986

H = 1987

J = 1988

K = 1989

L = 1990

M = 1991

N = 1992

P = 1993

R = 1994

S = 1995

T = 1996

V = 1997

W = 1998

X = 1999

Y = 2000

1 = 2001

2 = 2002

3 = 2003

4 = 2004

5 = 2005

6 = 2006

7 = 2007

8 = 2008

9 = 2009

To positively ID the engine use this as a guide for ME05E models... that is verbatim from the redbook

5000001~ =84

5100001~ =85

5200001~ =86

5300001~ =87

5400001~ =88

5500001~ =90

5600001~ =91

5700001~ =93

5704992~ =94

5708833~ =95

5714097~ =96

5719334~ =97

5800001~ =98

5811985 is 2000

Edited by chuck4788

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Thanks Chuck, that's the sort of info I need to start sorting this thing out.

I'll be able to get the bike out this week and start with definate identification. So far as I am aware this motor is a 96 XR200R

I do remember from a previous bike that they changed the outside dia of the main bearings through the years

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There are differences in the main bearing OD's. The difference is several mm. The 185 had small OD bearings both sides of the crank, an early 90's motor I stripped had a larger OD bearing on the magneto side and this '96 has the same larger OD main bearings on both sides.

Looking at several parts diagrams it looks like my problem may in the countershaft endfloat only.

The Clutch shaft, crank and shift drum are all anchored in the RHS centre case. The counter shaft is not fixed into either case half but is able to float between the bearings. Other Brands, Suzuki, Yamaha generally use the C/S (countershaft sprocket) nut to locate the shaft in the LHS centre case.

As the chain roller under swingarm was moved outwards about 2-3mm it has had the effect of pulling the countershaft outwards and with an unknown amount of end play has allowed the 3rd countershaft gear to move away from the adjacent gear with the driving dog. The gear with the driving dog (can’t remember which one it is off the top of my head) is being located by the shift fork and drum so stays in place. Third C/S gear moves away from the driving dogs and gives the slipping I’m getting.

As the misaligned chain roller is just a few inches from the C/S sprocket it was putting a high side load on the sprocket under overrun.

It also transpires that the “friend” who used the bike had been riding it like this for some weeks.

I know the motor should come out for a full inspection but I’m going to remove the C/S seal and tap the bearing inwards to take up most of the end float then ride it. If the bearing stays in place and the slippage is gone (as I suspect) I’ll strip it and put a spacer under the C/S output bearing.

The downside is that it will be about 4-5 weeks before I can get the bike out for a ride.

Short of buying a new set of cases there’s no way of telling if the bearings are seated to their proper depth or if the cases are worn.

The next project is to fit the lower engine cradle and motor from my wife’s CRF230 to this bike but that’s another story………………..

Edited by brent j

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Stating the obvious...... but the only way I could repair something like this myself personally if I was in your position is to split the cases and go through it all. Classic jumping out of third gear for me in my experience is a complete assessment of the transmission split and on the bench. Good luck I hope it's fixable.

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I take your point but without the correct end-float/clearance settings what do you set it up to?

This is what I've been looking for

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End float is controlled by the width inside the cases for the counter shaft and the length of the assembled components on the shaft.

Here is a way to check things:

Lay a straight edge across each case opening and measure the depth to the counter shaft thrust surface.

Measure the length of the assembled counter shaft including #21 & #24.

I don't have access to any cases but I just measured a '99 counter shaft and the gear stack including the end thrust washers is 99.84mm. The LOA of the shaft is 154.8mm.

To help others please post your results.

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I finally got to pull this motor out and strip it today.

The good.

Everything inside is clean, the clutch shaft is located nicely and the shift drum has minimal endfloat.

The crank is nice and tight. The true endfloat on the output shaft is 0.040" or 1mm. Doesn't seem as bad now I can get to it and measure it properly.

The bad.

Third output shaft gear is broken. It has one tooth missing from outside one drive socket and three from another. On the positive side I easily found all the broken bits and will continue to clean and check everything over the next few days

A new gear, all new shims and bearings and it should be back within the proper endfloat range.

Cheers

Brent

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The right side main shaft bearing is part of the right case assembly but Honda and after market options are available.

Note 2: Right Counter shaft: by John Banfill posted http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10061207&postcount=8 : Honda Pt# 91016-360-006 (NTN NK 15x23x12, "NK" = machined outer race) I found it as a part in the Honda CR125 ~1974-1982. It seems they've used it in the XR200 from 1986 up until 2002 but not as a replacement part.

by Chuck: 86 TLR200 NTN #NK15/16R (15x21x12) is a shell type (rolled cup) needle bearing. Probably the same on earlier XRs, ATCs, etc. Available at local bearing suppliers.

86+XR200R 15x23x12 is a ground race needle bearing. Available at local bearing suppliers.

Standard shell type ( rolled cup) bearings are available in 15x21x12, 15x21x16, and 15x21x22.

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Due to the extra side loading on the sprocket from the misaligned chain the output shaft bearing is very worn and the end float in the bearing measures 0.013". Basically there's a quarter of my total endfloat.

WIll clean up and Magna-flux the corrosponding clutch shaft gear tomorrow.

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