Suzuki Transmissions

[CaD11]

When i purchased my 2010 rmz 250, it had 0 hours on the new engine, and it was ready to go to the track. But after about five laps on the motocross track, it would start to hit false nuetral. Which is very dangerous because you will go over the bars on the landing of the jump.

Cut to 2:25, it shows him hitting False Nuetral and endoing.

We had to take it back to the guy we bought it from and he pulled the engine and sent it to a shop in tennesee. They split the cases and put the 2012 transmission in, which was supposed to fix it. But then, our Engine and Suspenion guy told us that there is no fix and it will only hold for a while.

The moral of this crazy story is that suzuki WILL NOT PAY FOR THE REBUILD! They looked the other way on every case.

The rmz is now running great! but Our guy now says the transmission is starting to go again, when going into turns, between first and second, no matter how hard i kick the shift lever up or down, it hits nuetral.

[Paczowski123]

Well being as you pinn the throttle in the air and hit the limiter evey time ur in the air I can see the bike blowing up transmissions. 12000rpms in the air free spinning the wheel then a harsh hit on the ground slowing the wheel significantly would be good for no bike. Reminds me of a mini barcia!! Sick riding though!!

[funkinalive]

you have a very aggressive rider there. with respect to his riding style i cant tell how hard he is shifting, but if he is a "stomper" as i would call them, they will bend the shift forks and cause damage to any modern 250f transmission when shifting under power. however, in my experience the rmz250 tranny's have one area of concern. their shifting mechanism is too "light" which on one hand makes the bike easy and smooth to shift, but on the other hand causes it to insufficiently "detent" the gear drum when shifting and when you hit "kickers". the reported fix for this is to install the 450 detent spring (part # 25355-28H00) on the shift drum, this will create a more positive shift and prevent the drum from rolling out of its detent so easily (caused by shifter leverage when you hit a kicker or sharp bump on the rear tire). unfortunately, if you get enough false neutrals you will damage the gear doggs and they will begin to oppose each other and "pop" out of gear under high torque situations (like the face of a jump). since your rider looks aggressive, i would also recommend undercutting the gear doggs at a machine shop, this would force the gears together rather than appart. finally, you can try using a thicker oil ( i use 15w 50 or even 20w 50) these higher viscosities have a higher ability to damp (resist) hydrodynamic impact forces such as those caused on the gear dogs while shifting. this increase in viscosity will prolong your tranny components and i have actually found it to improve shifting... i hope i have been of some assistance, and that the above mentioned remedies will at least help your mechanic get direction.

[harryhandshake]

back cutting the gears is a good technique that prevents the tranny from popping out of gear, actually makes it near impossible to pop out of gear under a load. ktm used to do it to their trannys back in the day right from the factory, not sure if the new machines are still back cut or not. however, back cutting does not prevent you from getting the false neutral between shifts, thats a different issue all together. from all the issues ive read about, suzuki trannys were just a bad design is what i think

Edited February 25, 2012 by harryhandshake

[Honda574]

There are at least 4 ways to get a "false neutral" that I know of:

1) foot inadvertantly slightly presses down on the lever while in gear (I had this happen twice on my 12 RMZ250 in the first 2.4 hrs...bumped lever while in 2nd landing a jump setting up for a corner)

-->fix: longer lever (the stock is about 10-15mm too close even for normal size feet...compare to any other bike)

2) insufficient force on the lever during upshift

-->fix: technique...lift knee up (sitting), rock ankle (standing). Do not rock ankle while sitting as boots can be too stiff.

3) Comes out of gear during high power (the scariest)

-->fix: replace worn gears. Do #1 and #2 with a new set of gears. Use higher viscosity oil (10/15/20W-50). Use the clutch while shifting if you're not racing for money and rebuilding the tranny after each race.

4) comes out of gear due to large impact to bike (kicker, hard landing, harsh braking/acceleration bumps)

-->fix: replace detent spring with stiffer RMZ450 to keep the shift drum from moving until you force it to by using the lever

You mentioned you had "false nuetral" after the 5th lap of a new bike. I doubt it's #3 (too new). I would be surprised if it's #4 (tranny is too tight). I'm hoping it's #1 or 2. Those being the easiest to fix.

What exactly were the conditions during the event and which of the 4 do you think caused it?

Thank you.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Honda574

[Honda574]

BTW, can you explain why you returned a bike to a guy and he pulled the engine and sent it in to get fixed?

Did you buy it used?

How to say the engine was new?

Right now we are working through a technical problem. My assumption is the transmission is new.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I still want to know the exact conditions prior to the "false neutral" event.

Thank you.

[Paczowski123]

I second the 20w 50 oil I ran a 10w 40 when I first got my bike hit a few false neutrals (some due to different shifter than my previous bike) and some due to slippage. After I put the 20w oil in it significantly helped clean up the gear box. I have all the parts now to do the decent spring, shift poles, and pawl springs, I will be doing it all along with a clutch once I get the clutch kit in. Hopefully it will eliminate the problem.

NOTE: wasn't there an aftermarket shifter that helped with bringing the shifter further away from the footage because I too notice I hit the Ike into neutral sometimes just because my foot is so close to the shifter? Like what the manufacturer was and the length of the better shifter?

[Honda574]

Hammerhead. They make a +10mm for this bike that puts it about right. It's black with a gold tip. $70ish

[Dube340]

When i purchased my 2010 rmz 250, it had 0 hours on the new engine, and it was ready to go to the track. But after about five laps on the motocross track, it would start to hit false nuetral. Which is very dangerous because you will go over the bars on the landing of the jump.

Cut to 2:25, it shows him hitting False Nuetral and endoing.

We had to take it back to the guy we bought it from and he pulled the engine and sent it to a shop in tennesee. They split the cases and put the 2012 transmission in, which was supposed to fix it. But then, our Engine and Suspenion guy told us that there is no fix and it will only hold for a while.

The moral of this crazy story is that suzuki WILL NOT PAY FOR THE REBUILD! They looked the other way on every case.

The rmz is now running great! but Our guy now says the transmission is starting to go again, when going into turns, between first and second, no matter how hard i kick the shift lever up or down, it hits nuetral.

Why would anyone shift into first in any corner on a MX Track? Makes me wonder?

[Honda574]

There are several other details here that makes me wonder.

[funkinalive]

for the OP: just so you know that these problem are not only suzuki related,

a few more if your interested

i basically found one for every manufacturer,

[ontherev164]

When i purchased my 2010 rmz 250, it had 0 hours on the new engine, and it was ready to go to the track. But after about five laps on the motocross track, it would start to hit false nuetral. Which is very dangerous because you will go over the bars on the landing of the jump.

Cut to 2:25, it shows him hitting False Nuetral and endoing.

We had to take it back to the guy we bought it from and he pulled the engine and sent it to a shop in tennesee. They split the cases and put the 2012 transmission in, which was supposed to fix it. But then, our Engine and Suspenion guy told us that there is no fix and it will only hold for a while.

The moral of this crazy story is that suzuki WILL NOT PAY FOR THE REBUILD! They looked the other way on every case.

The rmz is now running great! but Our guy now says the transmission is starting to go again, when going into turns, between first and second, no matter how hard i kick the shift lever up or down, it hits nuetral.

why are you entering a corner in 1st!?!!

[harryhandshake]

not sure how much time, effort of money you want to invest to make a suzuki trans better but heres a thought. its well documented cr250/500 had probly the best functioning trans ever put in a dirtbike. maybe find a cheap used honda bottom end on ebay and examine how it works and maybe incorporate some ideas to you own tranny. if you look at it from a engineering stand point you may find where it needs cut, grinded or modified. factory engineers screw the pooch all the time on all types of vehicles.

[MX28]

DUDE!!!!!!! sorry but i thought i got f'd on this, like i was the only one. i have the same bike mine does it too! its odd because my bike did it going from 3rd into 4th the other day(not the first time) and going from 2nd into 3rd to fals neutral is not a surprise at all. it's scary to think cause the faster i get the closer i get to really getting hurt. someone please get back to me if you can

[Paczowski123]

DUDE!!!!!!! sorry but i thought i got f'd on this, like i was the only one. i have the same bike mine does it too! its odd because my bike did it going from 3rd into 4th the other day(not the first time) and going from 2nd into 3rd to fals neutral is not a surprise at all. it's scary to think cause the faster i get the closer i get to really getting hurt. someone please get back to me if you can

I run a heavier weight oil 20W-50 and will be doing the shift detent update this weekend. (08 450) detent spring). the heavier oil has a higher shear rate and for my bike helped w/ the false neutrals/ Mainly 1-2 and 2-1. If you do a quick search there is plenty of information on the false neutrals and the preventitive measures and repairs that can help.

[funkinalive]

I run a heavier weight oil 20W-50 and will be doing the shift detent update this weekend. (08 450) detent spring). the heavier oil has a higher shear rate and for my bike helped w/ the false neutrals/ Mainly 1-2 and 2-1. If you do a quick search there is plenty of information on the false neutrals and the preventitive measures and repairs that can help.

what he siad... do a search and you will find plenty of information on this topic

[CockADoodleDoo]

Just bought a 2012 RMZ250 this weekend. I have to say that the length of the shifter is pretty ridiculous. I have a size 9.5 foot which is not very large and I felt like my foot was way to cramped in between the footpeg and the shifter. I could absolutely see this being a factor in transmission problems and getting an extended shifter will be the first "mod" I invest in for this bike.

I am a little paranoid about the issue and was being very deliberate with my shifts. No missed shifts for me yet.

[funkinalive]

Just bought a 2012 RMZ250 this weekend. I have to say that the length of the shifter is pretty ridiculous. I have a size 9.5 foot which is not very large and I felt like my foot was way to cramped in between the footpeg and the shifter. I could absolutely see this being a factor in transmission problems and getting an extended shifter will be the first "mod" I invest in for this bike.

I am a little paranoid about the issue and was being very deliberate with my shifts. No missed shifts for me yet.

yes the shifter would benefit from being 10mm longer IMO...

[Honda574]

Went to order a longer shifter today from TR...back order until end of March. ?

They were in stock a couple weeks ago.

[CockADoodleDoo]

Is Hammerhead the only option? Honda574, what brand were you looking at?