2006 RMZ 450 ... Need some advice / help ... About to pull out my AK and end this bike!

[kryonkid]

Hello

I recently bought a 2006 RMZ 450 and did a supermoto conversion. In my opinion it cam out nice.

Here is a link to the pictures so far: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/112803894367597307058/albums/5764052013470449265

The only problem is that i cant get it running... running well. I just replaced the cylinder head, new stainless steel valves & springs, New piston and rings and a new timing chain. I got it all put back together just like the service manual said.Everything torqued in sequence and to spec. I set my timing correct... making sure to be at TDC. I shimmed the valves and got all of them in spec( in the middle, not either end of the tolerances)

Here is my timing chain..... all the timing marks look correct right?

So i get it started and I hear this "TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP" sound. I thought it was just the timing chain, but when i tried to adjust it, i never got the sweet spot where the noise stops. Please see the video below:

Has anyone ever had this happen? Any ideas on what it could be? I really wanna get this running before summer ends.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[kryonkid]

Also here is an updated video from today. Broke the bike down again, hoping to find some clue to what is going on.

Am i nuts? Is all this looking normal to everyone? Service manual says Conrod gap can be up to 1.0mm, and I'm only at .55mm.

The piston movement I'm still questioning... do your pistons slide like that?

Any ideas?

Thanks

[jjhubbard15]

slide on piston is fine, its up and down play that you dont want, they are quite a noisy engine as it has very thin casting, not doubting that you may have a problem but have you tried turning the idle up? they get annoyingly loud if the idle is too low

[mikerides33]

Whatever it is it is slight. The side to side is fine (as stated above). I wonder if you should go tighter on your valve clearances. I always run mine on the tighter side of spec to try to cut down noise. This has to be something else though. I am still wondering why my manual says 14 pins and your says 15. I thought they were the same motors all these years.

[kryonkid]

Mike,

I wonder if i should try 14 pins??? just retard the exhaust cam 1 tooth???? My manual says 15 tho... Is yours a 450 as well?

when you say tighter on the valves, do you mean place a smaller shim inside the bucket so the valve will not open as far?

Or are you suggesting placing a larger shime to have the valve open further? Still fairly new to this stuff.

To me it looks like the exhaust valves are are making minor...just a bit of contact with the piston.

You can see it towards the end of the second video, if you wanna have a look.

[kryonkid]

slide on piston is fine, its up and down play that you dont want, they are quite a noisy engine as it has very thin casting, not doubting that you may have a problem but have you tried turning the idle up? they get annoyingly loud if the idle is too low

JJ, To me the idle was seemed pretty high. Not sure what the normal RPM idle range is, but it did drop in RPm once i started applying tesnion to the cam chain.

[jjhubbard15]

if you are hitting the piston you are doing something drasitcly wrong, either wrong valves or springs, the springs have to be stronger to move heavier stainless valves

[NVDESERTPETE]

That tapping noise is not normal! Did you check valve protrusion during head assembly? Your cam timing looks correct at the head but maybe your crank at TDC was off?

[NVDESERTPETE]

Also here is an updated video from today. Broke the bike down again, hoping to find some clue to what is going on.

Am i nuts? Is all this looking normal to everyone? Service manual says Conrod gap can be up to 1.0mm, and I'm only at .55mm.

The piston movement I'm still questioning... do your pistons slide like that?

Any ideas?

Thanks

It looks from the video the exhaust valves have been tapping the piston valve reliefs. Your cam timing in your other picture is correct. The crankshaft was either not at TDC when you got your cam chain on or something is out of specifications with the new valves or the piston. If that is a Wiseco piston I would start there and make sure it's the right one and compare against the old piston if your convinced the timing chain is on correct at the crankshaft.

[kryonkid]

if you are hitting the piston you are doing something drasitcly wrong, either wrong valves or springs, the springs have to be stronger to move heavier stainless valves

Yes i agree! The ProX valves came with new valve springs, im assuming ment for stainless steel.

[kryonkid]

That tapping noise is not normal! Did you check valve protrusion during head assembly? Your cam timing looks correct at the head but maybe your crank at TDC was off?

Sorry im new to this. But how would i go about checking my valve protrusion? Are you referring to the gap between the cam lobe and bucket ?

I am abot 99% certain that my crank was at TDC second notch on the flywheel. I even placed a screwdrive down the spark plug port to ensure the piston was all the way up.

[kryonkid]

It looks from the video the exhaust valves have been tapping the piston valve reliefs. Your cam timing in your other picture is correct. The crankshaft was either not at TDC when you got your cam chain on or something is out of specifications with the new valves or the piston. If that is a Wiseco piston I would start there and make sure it's the right one and compare against the old piston if your convinced the timing chain is on correct at the crankshaft.

Ill remove the piston tonight and compare to the factory piston. Is there anything in particular i need to look for. I will get the part number off the new piston and check it against what the wiseco website says.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Its really nice to have some help and not be doing this alone.

[NVDESERTPETE]

Valve protrusion is the relationship of where the valve sits in the seat to where the valve stem is located on the top of the head and it does matter. That being said I would recommend that a professional engine machinest is the best way to go on a modern motorcycle head especially if you are using aftermarket parts. The best way to take care of new valve seats is to CNC profile them. Most shops either go old school (grinding stones) or a cutter which is better but not best. Take a look at this link and watch all his instructional videos. He makes his own guides and seats out of non-beryllium (Moldstar 90) and explains why. He also does not cut the new seats but CNC profiles them (best!)

I had my "05" RMZ450 head done by him and his work is immaculate! I also spent a little extra and had him port the head. He has his own flow test bench and knows what works so you get more top end without losing anything at the bottom or in the middle.

http://www.pro1racingheads.com/Home.html

[mikerides33]

Mike,

I wonder if i should try 14 pins??? just retard the exhaust cam 1 tooth???? My manual says 15 tho... Is yours a 450 as well?

when you say tighter on the valves, do you mean place a smaller shim inside the bucket so the valve will not open as far?

Or are you suggesting placing a larger shime to have the valve open further? Still fairly new to this stuff.

To me it looks like the exhaust valves are are making minor...just a bit of contact with the piston.

You can see it towards the end of the second video, if you wanna have a look.

Mine is a 450. I was thinking perhaps if you retarded the timing it might be better. Rotate everything after you do and check that you have plenty of romm (you should). I am saying a slightly larger shim so that the clearance is a little smaller (tighter) less smack! Pro Circuit set theirs tighter along with a lot of others.

[kryonkid]

Valve protrusion is the relationship of where the valve sits in the seat to where the valve stem is located on the top of the head and it does matter. That being said I would recommend that a professional engine machinest is the best way to go on a modern motorcycle head especially if you are using aftermarket parts. The best way to take care of new valve seats is to CNC profile them. Most shops either go old school (grinding stones) or a cutter which is better but not best. Take a look at this link and watch all his instructional videos. He makes his own guides and seats out of non-beryllium (Moldstar 90) and explains why. He also does not cut the new seats but CNC profiles them (best!) I had my "05" RMZ450 head done by him and his work is immaculate! I also spent a little extra and had him port the head. He has his own flow test bench and knows what works so you get more top end without losing anything at the bottom or in the middle. http://www.pro1racingheads.com/Home.html

Man that pro1 shop can do some slick stuff... I am really thinking of haveing my old head rubuilt into a performance head.

Sounds like you got the 2.0 package? Im assuming you happy with your results?

J/W heard any good or bad about powder coating your head / valve cover? I just worry it might trap the heat in.

Thanks for the info.

[kryonkid]

First off, I again want to say a big THSNK YOU to everyone for the help. I am almost 100% positive I found the problem.

Take a look at the picture below:

The whole on the sprocket should line up with the lobes. So I did set my timing correct, but I didn’t know the shat had spun, putting the engine out of time.

I thought about taking the cams to a machine shop and having them reset... but found a set of stage 1 hot cams on ebay for a good deal... so I jumped on it.

If all goes to plan should be running soon. I’ll put up some video after I get my o2 bung installed and get this bike tuned.

[NVDESERTPETE]

I've never heard of this one happening on an RMZ before! No wonder you were pulling your hair out! Very happy with Charlies work at Pro 1. Got about another 80 hours on it and all is still good.

[Cybmax]

Just wanted to say its a very cool mod job ? Looks awesome indeed!

C

[david33mason]

Have not read all of the responses but have you checked that the shims are in the correct loaction on the valve tops, if the buckets move sometimes they lift the shims and they slide on the oil inside the buckets and then they are not in the locating hole when you push the bucket back into place. been there!!

[kryonkid]

Just wanted to say its a very cool mod job ? Looks awesome indeed!

C

Thanks!