W85W58

2012 WR450 Starting woes

516 posts in this topic

For those wanting to clean their fuel injector without activating it with a 9V battery, invoking diagnostic code D36 will activate the injector 5x at once per second.

 

I'm not 100% convinced that the idle mixture adjustment (C1) would come into play while cranking.  Most aftermarket fuel injection systems also have an adjustment for cold and hot cranking.  I wonder if Yamaha did something like this and its a setting we aren't accessing ?

 

If this is a lean mixture while cranking issue, I bet the variance between fuel quality, fuel filter (in the fuel pump) cleanliness, fuel pump pressure (listed as 43.5 to 56.6 PSI, at idle on page 8-5) and fuel injector cleanliness is causing the range of responses seen in the bikes.

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This addresses TPS settings and starting.

 

 

The relationship between the TPS voltage and the actual butterfly position (and air flow) somewhat controls the AF ratio.   The intake pressure sensor plays a role also.

 

However, at idle I doubt that the intake pressure is used as it would fluctuate too much.  I bet the TPS plays a big role during start up.

 

The manual says that the default fail safe for an open circuit TPS is "Able to start engine".  (Page 9-37)   Someone with a hot start issue please disconnect your TPS and see how it affects your starting.

Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy

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The hot start/cold start/choke/whatever simply raises the idle speed a bit, that's it. No FI bike has a true choke that changes the mixture. Having your idle too low is a sure fire recipe for hard starting with these bikes, hot or cold.

 

The cold start knob controls bleed air as described in this video.

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Just saw this on one of the R6 threads. So does C1-C2-C3 on MT/FZ actually refer to the individual cylinders, like most people including me seem to assume, or does it refer to throttle/RPM bands? But in that case why only three bands not four?

"I found this in one of the yamaha proformance books.

A: Fuel injection Adjustment
Fuel injection amount can be adjusted in the following four ranges:
Code C1: Fuel amount injected at 25% or less of throttle opening and at 3000 rpm or less
of engine speed
Code C2: Fuel amount injected at 25% or less of throttle opening and at 3000 rpm or
more of engine speed
Code C3: Fuel amount injected at 25% to 90% of throttle opening
Code C4: Fuel amount injected at 90% or more of throttle opening

Before changing the settings, check the engine for its characteristics in normal condition.
It is recommended that the settings be checked with an A/F measuring instrument.
Guidelines for setting
• Code C1: At 25% or less of throttle opening and at 3000 rpm or less of engine speed:
This affects the idling stability and the feeling experienced during races.
Too rich an air-fuel mixture may foul the spark plugs.
• Code C2: At 25% or less of throttle opening and at 3000 rpm or more of engine
speed:
This affects the feeling experienced during engine braking and at initial
throttle opening.
Make a change of 2 to 5% at a time while checking for any resulting
changes.
• Code C3: At 25% to 90% of throttle opening:
This affects the feeling experienced at half throttle opening.
Make a change of 2 to 5% at a time and check for any resulting changes.
• Code C4: At 90% or more of throttle opening:
This affects the feeling experienced at full throttle.
Adjustment to too lean a mixture will lead to engine breakdown.
Adjustment by checking the A/F is recommended.
In particular, to adjust on the leaner side, make a change of 1 to 2% at a
time while checking for the result. 12 to 13 is a targeted A/F.
Throttle opening (%)"

 

Source: http://www.fz09.org/forum/6-fz-09-general-discussion/2752-how-do-you-change-co-setting-3.html

 

 

Thoughts:

 

1) I wonder if CO (ie "Cee Zero") would be for the cranking mixture ?

 

2) Diagnostic codes seem to be uniform across Yamaha models.  D36 also actuates the fuel injector on the YZ450Fs, even though it uses a different system from the WR.

 

3) C1 probably doesn't affect the cranking mixture.  Its for 0 to 25% throttle opening, up to 3,000 RPM.

 

4) I wonder if C3 would increase fuel delivered at engine speeds less than 3,000 RPM ?   The GYTR programmer doesn't touch fuel below 3,000 RPM.  Could improve low end torque. 

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FWIW, IMHO, the idle enrichment change is worth doing even if you don't have a starting problem.  

 

On my bike it really improved off idle throttle response and decreased engine flameouts.   I specifically love this change when I get off line climbing some mudder farking big hill and I have to snap the throttle closed and then get back on it and I need engine response NOW and I'm done.   My WR now always seems to pull through in these situations and save my sorry butt.

 

PRO TIP: snapping the throttle closed/open on a hill climb is sure fire method for looping out. Instead you should be modulating the clutch to find the sweet spot of traction without too much power that it starts to wheelie.

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If it won't start with the cold start knob pulled then it probably isn't a fuel mixture issue. If it was really lean and you pulled the knob, it would richen and fire right up. Or flood, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I wasn't recommending the cold start knob as an operational fix, only as a troubleshooting step.

Has anyone checked their injector, fuel filter or fuel pressure ?

Page 10-1 in the WR450F manual has a list of troubleshooting items for "Starting Failures". I suggest the group go through them one by one until the issues is found. It doesn't appear that Yamaha or a dealer is going to come to our rescue, so its time to dig in and figure things out for ourselves.

I just wanna put this out there a buddy of mine suggested I run VP T4 fuel. Since the manual says to run 93 octane. Here in california the highest at the pump is 91 with 10% ethanol. Have to love California. It starts better hott and throttle response is a lot better.

Only thing that sucks is around here it's 14.59 a gallon.

Edited by Jonesy11

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This summer I've been running 93 octane pump gas.   Last summer, when it was starting hot on the first kick every time,  I was running 91 octane pump gas.  Neither had any ethanol in them. 

 

The first irony of this situation is that The KX450F is one of the best starting (large 4 stroke) dirt bikes ever.  It uses the same 12 nozzle Keihin 42mm throttle body and injector that our WR450Fs use.

 

The second irony is that just about all of us purchased a competition ECU which totally replaces the EPA mandated stock ECU.  There is no emissions related reason why bikes equipped with the competition ECU should be hard starting.

 

This should be really easy for Yamaha to fix, either by issuing another ECU (ECU swap) or by repogramming the ECUs we have installed in our bikes.  It should take all of 10 minutes per bike on a bike by bike basis or 30 seconds each to reprogram at the factory.  Why aren't they working on this ?

Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy

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How the hell do you delete double posts on this forum? *sigh*

Edited by GP1K

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This summer I've been running 93 octane pump gas.   Last summer, when it was starting hot on the first kick every time,  I was running 91 octane pump gas.  Neither had any ethanol in them. 

 

The first irony of this situation is that The KX450F is one of the best starting (large 4 stroke) dirt bikes ever.  It uses the same 12 nozzle Keihin 42mm throttle body and injector that our WR450Fs use.

 

The second irony is that just about all of us purchased a competition ECU which totally replaces the EPA mandated stock ECU.  There is no emissions related reason why bikes equipped with the competition ECU should be hard starting.

 

This should be really easy for Yamaha to fix, either by issuing another ECU (ECU swap) or by repogramming the ECUs we have installed in our bikes.  It should take all of 10 minutes per bike on a bike by bike basis or 30 seconds each to reprogram at the factory.  Why aren't they working on this ?

 

The ECU isn't the problem... as you pointed out, swapping out the stock ECU for comp ECU doesn't fix it. But adjusting the idle CO level does. So yes, it absolutely 100% is all about emissions, and the path Yamaha chose to get the WRs to pass them. YZFs don't have this issue, they're FI as well, but they're sold as closed-course race bikes so they don't have to pass emissions. So Yamaha isn't going to do anything about it, because modifying the bikes so they no longer pass emissions would be shooting themselves in the foot. Unless they come up with an entirely new way to get the bikes to pass emissions vs how they're doing it now. Honda & KTM have figured it out... why can't Yamaha?

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The ECU isn't the problem... as you pointed out, swapping out the stock ECU for comp ECU doesn't fix it. But adjusting the idle CO level does. So yes, it absolutely 100% is all about emissions, and the path Yamaha chose to get the WRs to pass them. YZFs don't have this issue, they're FI as well, but they're sold as closed-course race bikes so they don't have to pass emissions. So Yamaha isn't going to do anything about it, because modifying the bikes so they no longer pass emissions would be shooting themselves in the foot. Unless they come up with an entirely new way to get the bikes to pass emissions vs how they're doing it now. Honda & KTM have figured it out... why can't Yamaha?

 

Competition ECUs don't have to pass emissions testing.   That is why they are called competition and not street.  There is no reason for a competition ECU not to run correctly.

 

Furthermore, the starting enrichment is used about 0.05% of the bike's running time.   Richening that alone would not cause a bike to fail emissions.  There is no reason for the WR450F not to start properly.

 

Furthermore, Yamaha lets us adjust the mixture of everywhere but idle on the competition ECU via the GYTR programmer.  So don't tell me they can't adjust the idle (and starting) mixture due to emissions limitation.  Even furthermore, its a mistake on Yamaha's part that we can't adjust the mixture at engine speeds less than 3,000 RPM if they aren't going to get it right themselves. 

 

Its ironic that we are talking about emissions on a bike that competes against 2 strokes.  Ever looked at the tailpipe emissions of a 2 stroke ?  I'd say the WR450F runs pretty clean !

Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy

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Competition ECUs don't have to pass emissions testing.   That is why they are called competition and not street.  There is no reason for a competition ECU not to run correctly.

 

Furthermore, the starting enrichment is used about 0.05% of the bike's running time.   Richening that alone would not cause a bike to fail emissions.  There is no reason for the WR450F not to start properly.

 

Furthermore, Yamaha lets us adjust the mixture of everywhere but idle on the competition ECU via the GYTR programmer.  So don't tell me they can't adjust the idle (and starting) mixture due to emissions limitation.  Even furthermore, its a mistake on Yamaha's part that we can't adjust the mixture at engine speeds less than 3,000 RPM if they aren't going to get it right themselves. 

 

Its ironic that we are talking about emissions on a bike that competes against 2 strokes.  Ever looked at the tailpipe emissions of a 2 stroke ?  I'd say the WR450F runs pretty clean !

 

Right, except the ECU isn't why the bikes don't start right. Once I had my snorkel removed, comp ECU and FMF exhaust my bike ran fantastic... still started like shit though.

 

Well sure, but that .05% is the time where you're trying to start the bike. Duh. Richening it would make it fail, otherwise why would they lean it out so much? Bikes don't run well like that, everyone and their brother knows that. And they don't do it to YZFs. Gee, why not? Ever hear of Occam's Razor? If not, look it up.

 

It's not they can't, they won't. Because of... wait for it... emissions! Now I do totally agree that it is bogus that Yamaha provides the means to defeat every other part of the emissions bullshit (comp ECU with throttle stop removal screw, GYTR exhaust, FI tuner, etc) yet you MUST go to a dealer for the idle/CO thing.

 

Personally I think it's just one of those things Yamaha simply won't admit to, just like Honda wouldn't admit to the valve issues in early CRFs, but eventually just quietly fixed them.

 

How many green sticker 2 strokes (that aren't orange) can you name? And the WR doesn't really compete with two strokes anyways. It competes with CRF450X, KTM 450 XCF-W etc.

Edited by GP1K

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Whatever.  I guess you a) have the answer to the WR450F starting woes and B) speak for all the WR450F owners.   My input here is no longer needed.  Im out.

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Whatever.  I guess you a) have the answer to the WR450F starting woes and B) speak for all the WR450F owners.   My input here is no longer needed.  Im out.

 

Well just going off the fact that nearly everyone that has had their CO level set, either by their dealer or the shared tool from this forum reports it fixed their starting issues, I would say yes that is the answer.

 

But no, that does not speak to all WR owners, as not everyone has this problem (though most seem to) and some have cold start issues, which is not the same thing at all. For example, my bike has ALWAYS started great when cold. And it did so when showroom stock, with just the snorkel/ECU/exhaust, then after GYTR tuning, and finally after CO level set. Cold starting has never been a problem for me, but hot starting was.

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Higher octane is a big no-no at high altitudes. It can actually cause engines to run even more poorly. In my WR250, it says 91 octane only, but I found that where I ride, 85 is a better fuel, especially at colder temperatures. 91 makes the bike run poorly, and makes it hard to keep idling at lower temps at high altitude. Right now I'm running 91 in the WR450, but I will eventually drop it down to see how it runs with 87. I won't do that until I know the bike is starting correctly.

 

There are a million and one things which can affect these starting issues. Altitude is one of them, octane is another, temperature is another. The CO setting can't be a strictly defined number for all bike owners, because there's other factors which can affect what that setting should be. The FI system should take care of all those calculations on the fly, but it doesn't.

 

For me, it comes down to this: I bought a brand new motor vehicle. The motor vehicle does not start properly. It is still under warranty. I will take it to the dealer. If they cannot fix the problem without payment, I will hand it off to my attorney to begin lemon law proceedings. If it reaches a point where they will replace or repurchase, I'll have them buy it back, then I'll go buy a Honda. I refuse to tinker by spending hundreds of dollars on tools and equipment which don't consistently solve the issue for everyone. I can't stand having to be litigious, but if that's the only way to solve the problem...

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Higher octane is a big no-no at high altitudes. It can actually cause engines to run even more poorly. In my WR250, it says 91 octane only, but I found that where I ride, 85 is a better fuel, especially at colder temperatures. 91 makes the bike run poorly, and makes it hard to keep idling at lower temps at high altitude. Right now I'm running 91 in the WR450, but I will eventually drop it down to see how it runs with 87. I won't do that until I know the bike is starting correctly.

 

There are a million and one things which can affect these starting issues. Altitude is one of them, octane is another, temperature is another. The CO setting can't be a strictly defined number for all bike owners, because there's other factors which can affect what that setting should be. The FI system should take care of all those calculations on the fly, but it doesn't.

 

For me, it comes down to this: I bought a brand new motor vehicle. The motor vehicle does not start properly. It is still under warranty. I will take it to the dealer. If they cannot fix the problem without payment, I will hand it off to my attorney to begin lemon law proceedings. If it reaches a point where they will replace or repurchase, I'll have them buy it back, then I'll go buy a Honda. I refuse to tinker by spending hundreds of dollars on tools and equipment which don't consistently solve the issue for everyone. I can't stand having to be litigious, but if that's the only way to solve the problem...

 

Well I certainly do agree with you that a brand new bike should be able to simply start & run without having to jump through a bunch of hoops first. And it's not like emissions are anything new, and older WRs also had to pass emissions, and were very corked up stock, but they started just fine. I have buddies with WR250s, also corked up stock, but they started & ran just fine as well. So there really is no excuse for that.

 

So in that sense, it is a design flaw of some kind, or they simply did not work out all the kinks with new FI in terms of emissions and starting. That said, I wish you the best of luck pursuing legal action, as I highly doubt you'll get anywhere. That and your warranty is only 30 days, so unless your bike is less than a month old, it's already out of warranty.

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I've read all 415 posts here so far. 1st let me say, if anyone is selling their FI tool, let me know, I'd like to buy it.

 

I purchased a leftover 2012 (got a great deal, couldn't pass it up). I am having the same issue as most of you, hard starting.  From what I can glean off this thread, the idle mix is set too low from the factory. Use the FI tool to richen it up. I suggest that we may have multiple problems that overlap into the same issue, hard starting.

 

I have owned an '06, '07 and now this '12. Both the '06 and '07 were hard to start when the battery was not at full charge. And I mean full. If I had been riding slow at low RPM's, the battery would not get a good charge and by the end of the day it would get harder to start. I believe it is because the spark is not as "hot" when the battery is low. This was especially true when the '07 battery started to go bad. The battery they come with is just enough to get the job done and no more. That is why I think some of you guys are noticing an improvement when you replace the battery with an aftermarket unit.

 

Now the '12 is tough to start cold or hot, but more so when hot. I just purchased the GYTR ECU and programmer and will be installing it later today. I would like to check to see where my idle number is set. I will adjust that number when I have time to tinker and test it. There could also be a third issue of gas quality and octane versus altitude. It sounds like a lot of us ride at higher elevations (I'd say 5000'+). This could be aggravating the issue if it is true what was said earlier in the thread about the ECU only changing its performance after starting and warming up, shutting it off, starting it, shutting it off etc. I don't remember the exact sequence, but you get the picture.

 

If you take into account all the different things that can cause a hard start issue, it can cause your head to explode. I choose to believe the idle setting and battery to be the leading cause and other problems are secondary.  Any opinions?

 

And don't forget, I am looking to buy an FI tool. If you're done with yours, let me know.

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The FI tool is great and you'll definitely be happier with a new map. But that won't solve the hot start issue, the idle mix is what affects that, and the FI tool cannot adjust the idle circuit, only the dealer's tool (or aftermarket version, there is one available for rent on this very forum from a member) can do that. That is the key to curing the hot starting woes.

 

The FI tool can adjust the idle though, and you definitely don't want it too low. I run mine on the high side of the normal range, 2100 rpm.

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The FI tool is great and you'll definitely be happier with a new map. But that won't solve the hot start issue, the idle mix is what affects that, and the FI tool cannot adjust the idle circuit, only the dealer's tool (or aftermarket version, there is one available for rent on this very forum from a member) can do that. That is the key to curing the hot starting woes.

 

The FI tool can adjust the idle though, and you definitely don't want it too low. I run mine on the high side of the normal range, 2100 rpm.

 

I've bumped my CO setting to 7 and my bike is still hard to start when it's really hot. If I'm on double track or flowing single track it's fine to restart. But if I kick the bike over when hot, it'll start first kick.

 

You adjust the idle with the choke knob, by rotating it.

Edited by Spiritwalker2222

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I've bumped my CO setting to 7 and my bike is still hard to start when it's really hot. If I'm on double track or flowing single track it's fine to restart. But if I kick the bike over when hot, it'll start first kick.

 

You adjust the idle with the choke knob, by rotating it.

 

Ok I'm at 8 on my CO and my bikes starts 100% cold (always has) and now about 90% hot, and in gear even. It would NEVER EVER start in gear hot before.

 

Yes you adjust the idle that way, but without the FI tool it's hard to get it exactly right. I did it by ear initially, and found that too low once I put the FI tool on. Just getting the idle up to 2100 rpm helped with the hot starting. Also pulling the 'choke' will start my bike 99.9% of the time if it's being finicky when hot.

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Ok I'm at 8 on my CO and my bikes starts 100% cold (always has) and now about 90% hot, and in gear even. It would NEVER EVER start in gear hot before.

 

Yes you adjust the idle that way, but without the FI tool it's hard to get it exactly right. I did it by ear initially, and found that too low once I put the FI tool on. Just getting the idle up to 2100 rpm helped with the hot starting. Also pulling the 'choke' will start my bike 99.9% of the time if it's being finicky when hot.

I'm the same for starting the bike cold and hot. Bike doesn't seem to care if it's in gear or not. But when it's hot and humid, and I have the bike pinned going thru a mud hole. I know if I stall it, it'll be hard to restart. But if I kick it, it starts right up.

 

yes, the FI tool does make it easy to get the right idle speed. I've never pulled the choke. I'll probably do that when the bike is hot, and in a position where I can't kick the bike. Wish it was easier to find the choke, it's really barried in there.

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