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MSD Mike

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About MSD Mike

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  1. Happy new year everyone. Hopefullysomeone can give me a little advice. When reinstalling the cam chain tensioner on a 2003 CRF150F what is the proper method of adjustment? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks Mike
  2. I'm not sure what your budget is but the Digi-set timers that are frequently used for turning on nitrous in race cars might do the trick. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NOS-15838ANOS Thanks Mike
  3. MSD Mike

    4t to 2t

    I went from a 525XCW to a 300XCW. The only thing the thumper did better was go down a dirt road at a high rate of speed. My cruize speed in that condition is slower on the 300 than on the big thumper. No regrets for me Mike
  4. And ignition makes a difference, in a World of outlaws sprint car when they started changing from a 2 Amp Vertex mag to our 12 Amp stuff they had to take several degrees of timing out of the motors to keep from burning them up. Same thing happened in blown drag cars when they moved to more powerful magnetos. Mike
  5. I don’t really know what the flame speed is. I imagine it differs a good deal from engine to engine. Take an old school small black Chevy that gets 12.5:1 compression ratio with a large dome on the piston and worked over stock cast iron cylinder head. Some of those old engines would have to run 38-40 degrees of timing to make decent power. Take that same small block 25 years later and use an efficient cylinder head with a small chamber that makes 12.5:1 with a flat top piston and it might only take 30-32 degrees of timing to make good power. With a dirt bike I will use a carbureted YZ450 (Because I happen to know the numbers). They actually run as much as 44 degrees of advance at wide open throttle. I believe that once you get flame speed figured out all you have to do to get a different answer is study a different engine. I believe timing relates to flame speed, or at least when the combustion event need to start. So here are a few interesting timing numbers from applications I'm familiar with, Numbers may vary a bit form year model to year model Carbureted Yamaha YZ 450 - Max WOT timing 44 Degrees Fuel Injected YFZ 450 Quad - MAX WOT 38 Degrees, Part Throttle 50 Degrees, closed throttle coasting 60 degrees. Fuel Injected Yamaha Raptor 700 – Max WOT 38 Degrees, as high as 50 at part throttle Yamaha Rhino Max WOT 36 Degrees Kawasaki Teryx Max WOT 36 – 38 Degrees Carbureted Honda CRF 450 Max WOT 36 Degrees, part throttle as high as mid 50,s Top Alcohol dragster, 50 pounds of boost, one magneto – 30 degrees Same Dragster with two mags 22 degrees. Two plugs make a difference NHRA 500 inch Pro Stock Car – Around 28 degrees ADRL 800 plus inch pro stock car – low 20’s Pro Mod car on nitrous, start in the mid 20’s and drops to almost 0 with a full load of nitrous NASCAR Cup Car - 30 degrees give or take a couple from engine to engine, they actually vary timing on a cylinder to cylinder basis. Anyway, I think there are too many variables to determine flame speed unless you do an intensive study on one application. Hmm, I think I will go riding instead this weekend Thanks Mike
  6. MSD Mike

    poor cr125

    Ha, I have really struggled with the younger crowd pissing me off lately. I'm really having to work on it in my life. I had really been making some good progress on this but this video set me back years. I don’t know if I can recover.
  7. Good result on the corvette. I guess on the CD versus inductive I talking about their application for high performance automotive racing and street application using a distributor where you need the fast rise time to be prepared for the next firing event. As I stated I think either system works fine on distributor less multi coil systems unless you run significant levels of boost. Then I still believe the CD has an advantage. And CD ignitions are really the only practical option on the current crop of dirt bikes. As far as emissions are concerned, I don’t really know. I'm sure the test paper you’re provided is legitimate. It would be interesting to see the ignition spec for the CD and inductive ignitions. If they were in there I missed them. I'm not familiar with the massive electrode plugs they mentioned. Is an industrial piece? Also, when they spin a Cooper V-250 fast enough to reap the benefits of CD ignition I want one for my truck. Mike
  8. In drag racing and stock car where a distributor and single coil is still common there are real advantages to capacitive discharge ignitions. In these cases you require a single coil to keep up with your ignition needs up to and over 10,000rpm. A CD ignition is able to recharge and provide a spark with no loss of energy with a single coil V-8 application to well over 10,000 rpm. An inductive ignition is simply unable to keep up at elevated RPM. A current 500 inch NHRA pro stock engine will rev to about 10,200RPM and a short track NASCAR cup engine will run to 9800 with an occasional hit to 10,000 or a little higher. CD ignitions rule here. In multi coil systems where the coils have plenty of time between firing either type of system can work quite well at any RPM. If you have a high boost scenario the CD probably still has an advantage because of its better ability to strike an arc under pressure. Multi coils systems aren’t very demanding on the coils but are typically more expensive because you have to pay for multiple coils. A couple of CD versus inductive ignition basics might help. With an inductive ignition you will have battery voltage on the positive side of the coil and breaker point or transistor (electronic ignition) on the negative side of the coil. When the points/transistor are closed the coil build voltage in the primary winding and when they open the magnetic field collapses and creates a voltage in the secondary winding. This is the voltage that makes a spark at the plug. This all takes time, when you are at a high rpm the coil has less time to saturate and you get reduced spark energy. When you have a CD ignition you store energy in a capacitor and discharge this energy at a high voltage to the coil primary (positive side). The negative side is grounded. In the most powerful CD ignition you will see voltages as high as 570 Volts on coil positive. We can charge a capacitor much more quickly than we can saturate a coil. When you hit a coil with several hundred volts things happen more quickly that waiting for the coil to saturate with a 12 volt supply. This is the primary reason CD ignitions work better at very high RPM ranges with distributor type automotive application. Either CD or inductive ignitions can be quite powerful. Now, As it applies to our dirt bikes you will typically have a CD ignition because it is most practical with the flywheel type generators/magnetos that are used. A CD ignition can be battery powered or powered from the bikes generator / magneto. Of course no battery is what we are looking for on our bikes so CD makes the most sense. An inductive ignition generally requires a battery to charge the coil and this isn’t practical for most of our applications. I like the idea of not having to rely on a battery for my ignition when I am out riding in the middle of nowhere. Most UTV’s and some ATV’s are using battery powered inductive ignitions. They do not have the quite the packaging challenges that you have on a dirt bike and usually have pretty good electrical systems that can run battery powered ignitions. As a general rule, inductive ignitions are less expensive than CD to manufacture. Functional differences aside cost is still a huge factor at the OEM level and they will use inductive where they can. Save two dollars a unit on 40,000 units and, well you get the idea. As for spark plugs I will use a multiple ground electrode as an example. When they were first introduced it was with great promise that you would see better power, less emissions longer plug life and better mileage. The only real part of any of those claims is the longer life. This occurs because the spark will jump to one electrode until its worn out (Rounded) then it has a second electrode to jump to until it wears a bit further, then it jumps back to the other one. Back and forth until they are both worn out. This can increase the life of a plug somewhat but not double it. You still have a single center electrode to contend with. A spark will only jump to one electrode at a time, never both. I believe that customers may have seen some performance gain simply because they changed worn out spark plugs. We have dyno tested many types of spark plugs on many different engines and have never seen a performance difference. Not once. You want to make a spark plug choice based on correct heat range and what physically fits in your engine. Fine wire plugs can be beneficial in high pressure (Boosted) applications or applications with weak spark (our motorcycles) due to the lower voltage required to generate a spark. While all this may seem like it has drifted away from the original posters question it really hasn’t. If you have a bit better understanding of ignition systems it will help you understand when something smells funny. In Mr. Krupa’s defense, we have never tested his invention and don’t know anyone who has. Maybe he has the next great thing. I never say never but I often say not likely. Just for the record, I am not an engineer but I have good deal of experience working with high performance ignitions. I have worked at MSD Ignitions for 23 years, all of have been working in the field providing technical support to professional and sportsman level racers from local dirt tracks and drag strips to NASCAR and NHRA top fuel. I currently run the Powersports Division at MSD. Terrible Job, I know I’m sure not everyone agrees with me but I base it all on a lot of practical experience Thanks Mike
  9. Kind of an interesting note on Spark energy and a bit of MSD history. When MSD started in the early 70's a couple of engineers from White Sands Missile Range actually were working on an ultra lean burn carburetor to improve fuel economy. They were having issues with the stock ignition systems of the day lighting the super lean fuel mixtures the carburetor created. To combat this they designed a multi sparking CD ignition. It lit the fuel mixture nicely. We never sold a carburetor but we have sold an awful lot of multi spark ignitions over the years. Sorry to get sidetracked. Mike
  10. I understand, I just couldn’t resist. A point I will make though is that if you take a worn out domed shaped spark plug and a new spark plug with equal air gaps the new one with sharp edges will always require lower firing voltage. We have tested it many times and the result is always the same. Thanks MSD Mike
  11. "That's when I thought, 'If that's what the spark plug wants to be, Not to be smart but if I pulled a worn out piston or bearing from a trash can I dont think that my first thought would be. That what a piston wants to be. Mike
  12. One of the MSD ignitions can probably fill that role to some degree. As I recall, they fire continuously for something like 20 degrees of rotation after the timed ignition point. Your right about spark jumping more easily from a sharp point. Fine wire plugs are often used in high boost automotive applications due to lower break down voltages. They will often work when a normal size electrode will not. Increased spark energy can only come from the ignition amplifier and coil, not a spark plug. We can make huge ignition power but it’s not practical for dirt bike applications due to the required size of the electronics and coils. Even the 44 amp magnetos we use on top fuel application do not make the "ball of fire" shown. They will make you a ball of goo if you get hit by one though Ask me how I know. Seriously though, there are methods using capacitors in spark plug wires or our spark plug caps that can make a spark plug look something like that (Even a regular plug) However, they are not delivering more energy, they simply take the energy available and deliver it over a much shorter period of time. It makes a great visual if used with a powerful ignition but it still doesn’t change available energy. It just delivers it over a different (Shorter) time frame. I won’t name names but I have seen other wiz bang plugs and plug wire devices that show the ball of flame effect. They often use one of our MSD boxes in conjunction with one of the capacitor type devices to drive the "ball of flame side" of their display. There are a lot of tricks out there. Thanks MSD Mike
  13. Hmmm, In my experience a spark always jumps from the one electrode to another at the point that requires the lowest voltage to jump. Smallest gap, sharpest point, Etc. I see no way to make a giant ball of electrical flame in the combustion chamber with only a spark plug change. Physics don’t change. A dual electrode plug doesn’t provide two sparks. The spark simply jumps to one electrode until it erodes to the point that it is easier to jump to the other electrode so I’m not sure what the big ball trick is supposed to be. I'm always a little suspicious of these type things. I mean if this was really available and could improve emissions and mileage that much I think the OEMs would be all over it. Could you imagine their sales on a full size truck with a v-8 that would get 40MPG with almost no emissions? I would buy one today and so would everyone I know. How about a 60 mpg compact. Sounds pretty attractive. Another issue I see is that the plug protrudes way too far into the combustion chamber. I don’t think you could get that into many engines without piston interference. Especially all the 12.5:1 four stroke stuff out there today. Anyway, just one guys take on things. Thanks MSD Mike
  14. We have done some testing and you are right, they are not very good from a spark output and effeciancy standpoint but they are pretty durable. Mike
  15. Working for an ignition manufacturer I can tell you that making the "stick Coils" more powerful is quite a challenge. There is simply not a lot of room for copper and iron, two key ingredients for making spark power from a coil. Not having tested these coils I am in no position to offer an opinion on their performance but I will say if you have managed to squeeze some more energy and durability out of this style coil its a good thing. The oem's are going to this style of coil primarily for packaging reasons and to eliminate the maintenance associated with a plug wire, not because they provide more energy. While I can see reduced potential for problems by eliminating the coil wire and its required connection points I haven’t found remote mounted coils to be particularly troublesome on newer bikes. In fact, knock on wood, the only ignition related problem I ever had on a bike without points was the Motoplat on my old KTM 495, it failed regularly. For me I am most interested in the additional energy because I don’t feel there are any real reliability problems on most new dirt bikes. I have no idea about Moto GP or other road race applications. Regarding performance gains with the extra energy I believe you will find results all over the map. In our testing at MSD on both automotive and motorcycle applications we have found more spark energy helps some time and not others. There are many variables such as piston and head design, compression ratio and what kind of fuel you are using. Generally, the more you have done to the engine the more potential there is for an improvement with spark energy increase. We have added more powerful ignitions to some bikes and seen absolutely nothing in return. Another example would be a built flat track bike (YZ450) with very high compression ratio. The compression was high enough that at peak cylinder pressure the stock ignition would not run without missing. Reducing plug gap helped but didn’t solve the problem. We added a more powerful ignition (with the stock coil actually) and the builder was able to run the compression ratio he desired with no missing. You simply don’t know until it’s tested in the application you’re interested in. Sometimes more spark doesn’t give any power gain but may help with better throttle response and a bike that is less sensitive to incorrect jetting. In my experience, simply changing a coil without using a more powerful amplifier nets fairly small but useful gains in spark energy. Anyway, I am interested in independent results that relate to our dirt bike applications. I don’t really blame him for not sharing too many technical details; you never really know who is watching:) PS Regarding the LS application that an earlier post mentioned, the factory LS coils are CNP and not COP because the LS coils actually each have an amplifier built into the coils and are triggered with a low voltage signal from the ECU. Because they have electronics built in they don’t lend themselves to “Stick coil” type packaging The LS motors spark plug configuration is also kind similar to and old school small block in that they are just screwed in the side of the head and don’t really have room/support required by the stick coil setup. Thanks MSD Mike
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